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On this episode of the podcast, CDCI Executive Director Jesse Suter is joined by UVM University of Vermont Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Education Michael F. Giangreco.
Giangreco shares memories, observations, and advice from his more than 30 years of service at CDCI. Dr. Giangreco is a widely published and respected innovator in the field of special education, as well as being the author of the much-loved cartoon series, Absurdities and Realities in Special Education.
A full transcript of the episode appears below.
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(upbeat music)
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Hi, I’m Jesse Suter.
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I’m the Executive Director
of the Center on Disability
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and Community Inclusion at
the University of Vermont.
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I use he/him pronouns,
and I’m really excited
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to be doing a podcast
with Michael Giangreco.
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Michael, you are my mentor,
colleague, and friend,
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and also University of Vermont
Distinguished Professor
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Emeritus in Special Education.
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That’s still hard to say
because we work together here
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for so long and you have retired.
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So thank you for doing this
as a quick visual description.
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So I’m a white man in my 50s with no hair,
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some facial hair turning gray,
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and I’m wearing a pink striped shirt.
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And Michael, I think,
distinguished professor
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is almost a good enough description,
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but you are a white
man, a little bit older,
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a little more hair.
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You’re wearing brown
glasses and a red sweater
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over a blue white striped shirt.
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Thank you for joining me today.
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Thank you.
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Glad to be here.
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So when I thought about sort
of what we could talk about,
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’cause we’ve talked with
each other for a long time.
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We met, I think, when I
was a graduate student.
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You’re at the center,
and I always have to look
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at that wall over there, ’cause
it’s my internship diploma.
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And it reminds me that my
internship was in 2003.
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And so that must mean I met
you the year before that,
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’cause that’s when I left.
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And you were a big reason
that I wanted to come back.
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So I went to graduate school here.
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We met during one of my placements here
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at the Center on Disability
and Community Inclusion.
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And it was you and Ruth
Hamilton and a few other people
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that just sort of
introduced me to the heart
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and soul of this work,
community inclusion.
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And so I wanted to come back immediately.
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So I did my internship,
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and I talked to Ruth and I said,
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“Can I come back, please?
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Is there anything I can do at the center?”
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And then you and I
started working together
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more formally not long after that.
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Right, it was actually,
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I was asked to serve as your mentor
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through the mentoring program.
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Oh, that’s right, yeah.
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And then I realized very
quickly how talented you were,
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and I wanted to you work
on projects with me.
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Oh.
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I mean, so this is exactly why I was happy
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that you wanted to do this,
’cause you always make me
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feel so good about
myself whenever we talk.
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So it’s all just an
excuse for more of that.
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We’ve had many good years of
collaboration and friendship.
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Yeah.
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So what I was thinking about
what we could talk about,
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I just thought about
all of our conversations
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that we’ve had since we met.
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And not only did you support
me as a mentor professionally
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in terms of the research, but again,
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that heart and soul aspects of the job
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is something that was really absent
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from all of my training
in clinical psychology
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and through graduate school.
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It was much more about, we
do the research to come up
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with the best interventions
and then the goal
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is to just get those interventions
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to as many people as we can.
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That was the whole model.
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That was the approach.
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And what I think about
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some of the first conversations we had,
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and I’d love to talk
about this a little bit,
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which is you got into
this area, as I recall,
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not because research was
the solution for everything.
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That’s not how you improve the world.
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Yeah, I did get through research.
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Yeah.
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So I’d like to talk about
kind of your journey.
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-Okay.
-A little bit.
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So if we could kinda start there,
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so how you got into working
with people with disabilities,
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got into schools, ’cause I
always loved working this part.
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I got into it by accident.
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This is why I love it.
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As a student in high school,
I was at best a marginal,
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maybe B minus student in high school.
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My high school teachers would be shocked
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to learn that I got a PhD.
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Did you tell any of ’em?
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No, I don’t think I ever did
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tell any of my high school teachers that.
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But the summer between my junior
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and senior year in high school,
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I was visiting some friends
outside of Pittsburgh,
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a little place called
Marysville, Pennsylvania.
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And one day when I was there, they said,
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“Oh, come with us.
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We’re volunteering at this day camp.”
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And they never thought to mention to me
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that it was a camp for students,
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children, youth with
intellectual disability.
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So when I arrived there, they
had kind of planned things
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that they were scheduled
to do, and they were like,
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“Oh, just go here and
play with these kids.”
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And I didn’t know what to do,
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because as a kid growing
up in the 1950s and 1960s,
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kids with disabilities were not around.
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I mean, I have three strong
memories from childhood
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of interacting with people that had
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pretty significant disabilities.
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One was a little girl
who lived on our block
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who I know used a wheelchair for mobility.
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And I’m pretty sure she was non-verbal.
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And a bus came and picked her up every day
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and took her to some place that
I don’t know where it went.
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And her parents took her on
walks, but none of us knew her.
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That was pretty common.
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I also remember that one
of my mother’s friends
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had a child at the time who was a teenager
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who had very severe cerebral palsy.
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I didn’t know it was
cerebral palsy at the time.
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And I remember being at their house,
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and I had this distinct
image of his mother
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feeding him a tuna fish sandwich.
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And I’d never encountered somebody
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with that level of disability before.
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And the third was, I remember
in our elementary school,
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we had a classroom of kids
who people made fun of.
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I remember that.
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And one of the reasons was
because they weren’t our age.
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They were all older.
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They were kids old enough to
have a five o’clock shadow.
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[Jesse] Yeah.
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But again, they didn’t
eat in the cafeteria
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at the same time that we did.
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They were very segregated from us.
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We just didn’t know them.
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And so disability had never
really been on my radar.
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But that day at the summer camp,
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it felt very natural to me.
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Like just interacting with
people that, in this case,
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it was people with primarily
intellectual disability.
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And I had fun.
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I mean, I really enjoyed it.
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And I thought, I didn’t know
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what I was going to college for.
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I didn’t have a profession in mind.
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And I thought, “You know what?
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I could do this.
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Maybe I’ll go to school
for special education.”
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And so I did.
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And my first semester, or actually,
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it was my second semester in college,
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I ran into an old high school friend
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who was working at a summer camp,
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a residential summer camp
called Cradle Beach Camp,
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outside of south of Buffalo
and Angola, New York.
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And she encouraged me to apply.
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And that was one of the most important
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decisions I ever made in my life,
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because Cradle Beach has
been around since 1888.
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It first was considered what was called
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a “Fresh Air” mission, which
was to bring economically
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disadvantaged inner city
children to the country
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to try to put some weight on them
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and give them some fresh air.
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And then after World War II,
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they started including
children with disabilities.
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First, separately at a separate time.
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But then within a few years
following World War II,
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they started integrating
children with disabilities
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and their non-disabled peers at the camp.
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And it was very unique.
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And it still is unique
today in terms of a place
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where kids with and without disabilities
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go to camp together.
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And the one downside of it, so to speak,
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is the fact that it’s
a bit out of proportion
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in terms of there’s proportionally
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more children with various disabilities
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than there are kids without disabilities.
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It’s about half and half.
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And that’s kind of out of proportion
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to what you’d see in the real world.
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But one of the things that it
did, it did two things for me.
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One was it exposed me to an enormous range
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of different types of
physical, intellectual,
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emotional, sensory disabilities.
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But the more important part,
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and I did this for seven summers
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-during college.
-Wow.
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And then my early teaching career
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was that I was living in community
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with people with disabilities.
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And we also had a lot
of counselors and staff
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who had disabilities of various sorts.
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The guy who ran the
arts and crafts program
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had severe cerebral palsy.
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We had counselors who were deaf,
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counselors who were blind,
counselors that had different
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physical or orthopedic disabilities.
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It was just an amazing
kind of mix of people.
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And we were together 24/7 for,
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our camp sessions were
two weeks at a time.
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There were 200 kids at
the camp at one time.
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That was really big, yeah.
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Yeah, and like a hundred staff.
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And we ate together and we
slept in cabins together,
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and we camped together.
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And our whole purpose was having fun.
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-Safely.
-It was camp.
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It was camp.
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-Yeah.
-And anything
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that any other kid could do,
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any kid with a disability could do.
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And we just thought, and none
of us were trained, really.
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And there was a little bit of orientation,
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but it was really more of a mindset.
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These are kids, and we’re
gonna do fun kid things,
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and we’re gonna do them all together.
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And if there’s some barrier in the way,
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we’ll figure out a way to make it work.
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And it was a grand, I mean,
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it was a grand time and it was probably
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one of the most meaningful
things in terms of,
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you mentioned kind of the heart and soul,
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because you never can know
exactly what it’s like
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to be the parent of a child
that has a severe disability
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or some kind of really intensive need.
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But you get a tiny glimpse of it
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when you’re living in a
residential situation,
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because for kids that needed it,
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we were dressing them,
we were changing diapers,
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we were feeding kids,
we were carrying them
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from their wheelchairs into the pool.
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00:12:05,520 –> 00:12:08,370
We were doing everything
that a parent would do.
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We were up in the middle of the night
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if somebody woke up with a nightmare.
244
00:12:13,470 –> 00:12:16,020
And so you got a small glimpse of that.
245
00:12:16,020 –> 00:12:20,040
But the cool thing about
the socialization of it
246
00:12:20,040 –> 00:12:23,340
was we weren’t there to be their teacher.
247
00:12:23,340 –> 00:12:25,410
We weren’t there to be their counselor.
248
00:12:25,410 –> 00:12:28,314
We were there to have fun together.
249
00:12:28,314 –> 00:12:31,530
And it just created,
250
00:12:31,530 –> 00:12:34,800
I think in many ways it
kind of inoculated me
251
00:12:34,800 –> 00:12:38,220
from some of the
professional socialization
252
00:12:38,220 –> 00:12:40,590
that puts professionals here
253
00:12:40,590 –> 00:12:42,540
and people with disabilities here.
254
00:12:42,540 –> 00:12:45,270
I mean, there certainly is
always a power and balance
255
00:12:45,270 –> 00:12:48,540
when you’ve got a child and
adult, a camper and a counselor.
256
00:12:48,540 –> 00:12:53,540
But it’s different than kind
of professional socialization.
257
00:12:53,760 –> 00:12:55,590
So that was super influential.
258
00:12:55,590 –> 00:12:59,463
And then one of the people
that worked at the camp,
259
00:13:01,290 –> 00:13:02,940
it was actually a married
couple at the time.
260
00:13:02,940 –> 00:13:07,350
They worked in the only group
home that was available.
261
00:13:07,350 –> 00:13:10,140
Remember, this is the mid-1970s.
262
00:13:10,140 –> 00:13:13,830
The institutionalization
is just getting started.
263
00:13:13,830 –> 00:13:17,310
And group homes were like brand new.
264
00:13:17,310 –> 00:13:20,220
There was one in Western New York.
265
00:13:20,220 –> 00:13:23,460
Granger Place on the west side of Buffalo.
266
00:13:23,460 –> 00:13:28,460
I volunteered there and did
some internship credits there.
267
00:13:29,880 –> 00:13:32,630
And then I ended up getting a job.
268
00:13:32,630 –> 00:13:36,180
In the last two and a half
years I was in college,
269
00:13:36,180 –> 00:13:38,373
-I was working full-time.
-[Jesse] Oh wow.
270
00:13:38,373 –> 00:13:41,490
At a group home for adults
271
00:13:41,490 –> 00:13:44,340
with developmental disabilities.
272
00:13:44,340 –> 00:13:46,230
Mostly those with intellectual,
273
00:13:46,230 –> 00:13:48,210
all of them had intellectual disabilities.
274
00:13:48,210 –> 00:13:51,213
Some of them had other
disabilities as well.
275
00:13:52,290 –> 00:13:54,240
About how big was the group home?
276
00:13:54,240 –> 00:13:55,800
Like people who were living there?
277
00:13:55,800 –> 00:13:58,890
There were six residents
in the group home.
278
00:13:58,890 –> 00:14:03,510
And today, we have kind
of more natural options
279
00:14:03,510 –> 00:14:05,460
than congregating people in group homes.
280
00:14:05,460 –> 00:14:08,190
But at the time, it was
kind of an innovation.
281
00:14:08,190 –> 00:14:10,620
Yeah, as opposed to a big institution.
282
00:14:10,620 –> 00:14:11,463
Right.
283
00:14:13,410 –> 00:14:18,090
Originally, I was working
in the 11-7 shift.
284
00:14:18,090 –> 00:14:21,330
But I was really, I was
showing up at dinner time.
285
00:14:21,330 –> 00:14:22,650
I was having dinner with the residents,
286
00:14:22,650 –> 00:14:25,710
hanging around in the evening
and doing my homework.
287
00:14:25,710 –> 00:14:29,220
And then I was responsible
to be there overnight,
288
00:14:29,220 –> 00:14:32,700
and in the morning to get
them making their breakfast
289
00:14:32,700 –> 00:14:37,700
and off to work or day
programs that they were in.
290
00:14:38,070 –> 00:14:43,070
And again, the goal was
helping people live their life.
291
00:14:45,000 –> 00:14:47,250
And none of us knew what we were doing.
292
00:14:47,250 –> 00:14:52,250
I mean, they hired a
19-year-old kid. (laughs)
293
00:14:52,380 –> 00:14:55,950
That gives you an idea of
how devalued, you know.
294
00:14:55,950 –> 00:14:59,190
Like a 19-year-old kid
that is still in college
295
00:14:59,190 –> 00:15:01,050
could get a job doing this.
296
00:15:01,050 –> 00:15:02,730
I mean, those were the exact same options
297
00:15:02,730 –> 00:15:04,590
that were options for me
298
00:15:04,590 –> 00:15:06,660
in graduate school in mental health,
299
00:15:06,660 –> 00:15:08,820
’cause we had the same thing,
but we had overhead programs
300
00:15:08,820 –> 00:15:10,710
or residential treatment centers.
301
00:15:10,710 –> 00:15:12,540
And some of them were small
and some of them were big.
302
00:15:12,540 –> 00:15:17,160
But yeah, that’s who you hired
to have the overnight shift.
303
00:15:17,160 –> 00:15:17,993
Yeah.
304
00:15:17,993 –> 00:15:19,980
And then later, actually,
during student teaching,
305
00:15:19,980 –> 00:15:23,850
I had the 3-11 shift, and the group home
306
00:15:23,850 –> 00:15:27,690
gave me some flexibility once residents
307
00:15:27,690 –> 00:15:30,100
were kind of getting ready to go to sleep
308
00:15:31,590 –> 00:15:34,743
to do my lesson planning
and stuff like that.
309
00:15:35,910 –> 00:15:40,380
But I think that basically,
I was living with people
310
00:15:40,380 –> 00:15:45,380
with disabilities in
community for several years.
311
00:15:46,380 –> 00:15:49,470
And that’s a really different experience
312
00:15:49,470 –> 00:15:51,060
than just showing up and seeing people
313
00:15:51,060 –> 00:15:54,450
at school or a clinic or
something and then going.
314
00:15:54,450 –> 00:15:57,390
So now, then I became a
teacher, special ed teacher,
315
00:15:57,390 –> 00:16:02,310
and I was there at the
beginning of the IDEA.
316
00:16:03,870 –> 00:16:05,280
Whether it was, of course,
317
00:16:05,280 –> 00:16:08,730
then it was originally called EHA,
318
00:16:08,730 –> 00:16:11,253
the Education for All
Handicapped Children’s Act.
319
00:16:13,050 –> 00:16:17,130
But as you know, and probably
many of the listeners
320
00:16:17,130 –> 00:16:20,130
know that law passed in 1975,
321
00:16:20,130 –> 00:16:24,210
but it wasn’t to be enacted until 1977.
322
00:16:24,210 –> 00:16:27,150
They gave schools two years to ramp up,
323
00:16:27,150 –> 00:16:29,400
in states, two years to ramp up.
324
00:16:29,400 –> 00:16:34,400
And my first year of teaching
was the ’77, ’78 school year.
325
00:16:37,140 –> 00:16:39,390
I started in January, but it was the ’77,
326
00:16:39,390 –> 00:16:41,409
it was the very first year
327
00:16:41,409 –> 00:16:43,920
of the federal law being in place.
328
00:16:43,920 –> 00:16:47,670
I was a preschool special
ed teacher in a rural,
329
00:16:47,670 –> 00:16:49,830
very, very rural community.
330
00:16:49,830 –> 00:16:50,880
I didn’t remember it was preschool.
331
00:16:50,880 –> 00:16:52,953
Yeah, preschool special ed.
332
00:16:54,180 –> 00:16:56,370
We had some kids that were
there for a morning session,
333
00:16:56,370 –> 00:16:59,013
some for an afternoon, and
some that stayed all day.
334
00:17:00,180 –> 00:17:03,000
And I worked with a team there.
335
00:17:03,000 –> 00:17:07,110
And then I had two other
teaching experiences.
336
00:17:07,110 –> 00:17:08,760
These were all in New York state.
337
00:17:10,530 –> 00:17:13,785
Starting up in Plattsburgh the next year,
338
00:17:13,785 –> 00:17:18,420
the first classroom, and again,
339
00:17:18,420 –> 00:17:20,730
this was during an era of segregation,
340
00:17:20,730 –> 00:17:24,360
particularly of people
with severe disabilities.
341
00:17:24,360 –> 00:17:27,840
The first public school classroom for kids
342
00:17:27,840 –> 00:17:32,840
with what was then called severe
and profound disabilities.
343
00:17:33,360 –> 00:17:36,660
So I had kids with blindness,
kids with severe autism,
344
00:17:36,660 –> 00:17:40,860
kids with severe intellectual
disability, you name it.
345
00:17:40,860 –> 00:17:44,490
They were in there and
they were from 5 to 21.
346
00:17:44,490 –> 00:17:46,890
And it was in the wing
of a vocational center,
347
00:17:46,890 –> 00:17:50,703
but it was a special ed
kind of segregated setting.
348
00:17:52,380 –> 00:17:55,380
It was the very first
public school program.
349
00:17:55,380 –> 00:17:59,340
And the personnel preparation
programs at that time
350
00:17:59,340 –> 00:18:01,170
didn’t prepare you to work with kids
351
00:18:01,170 –> 00:18:03,810
with more intensive needs.
352
00:18:03,810 –> 00:18:08,670
So I’m winging it based on camping.
353
00:18:08,670 –> 00:18:09,720
Right.
354
00:18:09,720 –> 00:18:11,379
Well, it sounds very similar to the camp
355
00:18:11,379 –> 00:18:12,212
where you guys were,
356
00:18:12,212 –> 00:18:14,670
it was just a community figuring it out.
357
00:18:14,670 –> 00:18:15,747
Yeah, I mean,
358
00:18:15,747 –> 00:18:18,030
and IEPs were brand new.
359
00:18:18,030 –> 00:18:22,770
So one of the things
that I learned quickly
360
00:18:22,770 –> 00:18:25,320
was right across the lake from me.
361
00:18:25,320 –> 00:18:26,940
Here at the University of Vermont,
362
00:18:26,940 –> 00:18:29,010
there was a new federally funded
363
00:18:29,010 –> 00:18:32,190
personnel preparation
program to prepare teachers
364
00:18:32,190 –> 00:18:35,520
to work with students who had
severe multiple disabilities.
365
00:18:35,520 –> 00:18:40,500
And so I got on the
ferry at Cumberland Head
366
00:18:40,500 –> 00:18:44,700
and came across Lake
Champlain twice a week.
367
00:18:44,700 –> 00:18:48,466
And during the summer, over
a year and a half period,
368
00:18:48,466 –> 00:18:52,290
to get my master’s degree
focused on students
369
00:18:52,290 –> 00:18:53,757
with severe and multiple disabilities.
370
00:18:53,757 –> 00:18:57,063
And that was absolutely invaluable.
371
00:18:58,290 –> 00:19:00,420
So was the master’s program
connected to the center?
372
00:19:00,420 –> 00:19:01,740
I know there was faculty that worked.
373
00:19:01,740 –> 00:19:02,610
Absolutely, yeah.
374
00:19:02,610 –> 00:19:03,840
It was connected to the center.
375
00:19:03,840 –> 00:19:05,740
Yeah, so that’s how you
became connected to us first.
376
00:19:05,740 –> 00:19:09,079
Yeah, that’s how I got
connected to the center.
377
00:19:09,079 –> 00:19:12,000
So I taught, then for a short time,
378
00:19:12,000 –> 00:19:13,950
I went down to Virginia,
379
00:19:13,950 –> 00:19:16,440
worked at the University of Virginia
380
00:19:16,440 –> 00:19:17,970
Children’s Rehabilitation Center
381
00:19:17,970 –> 00:19:21,513
as an outpatient orthopedic clinics.
382
00:19:23,250 –> 00:19:25,230
Did some graduate work down there.
383
00:19:25,230 –> 00:19:27,510
Did an EDS degree in special ed down there
384
00:19:27,510 –> 00:19:30,210
with some wonderful people,
385
00:19:30,210 –> 00:19:32,700
but really talented, talented folks.
386
00:19:32,700 –> 00:19:37,700
And then went back to
teaching and taught in Ithaca.
387
00:19:38,940 –> 00:19:43,590
And then from there, became
a special ed administrator,
388
00:19:43,590 –> 00:19:46,890
where I really got into desegregating
389
00:19:46,890 –> 00:19:49,500
some programs in Auburn, New York
390
00:19:49,500 –> 00:19:51,960
with a wonderful team of people there.
391
00:19:51,960 –> 00:19:53,490
And while I was doing that,
392
00:19:53,490 –> 00:19:58,200
I did my doctoral degree at Syracuse.
393
00:19:58,200 –> 00:20:02,163
And when I finished, folks
here at the center said,
394
00:20:03,307 –> 00:20:05,640
“We have an opening for a grant position.”
395
00:20:05,640 –> 00:20:10,640
And we joke about it now, but
I almost didn’t get that job.
396
00:20:11,820 –> 00:20:13,560
Even though there were
only two applicants,
397
00:20:13,560 –> 00:20:15,240
I almost didn’t get that job.
398
00:20:15,240 –> 00:20:16,350
That’s come up a few times.
399
00:20:16,350 –> 00:20:19,620
But I did get that job and that led
400
00:20:19,620 –> 00:20:22,260
to a 34-year career here.
401
00:20:22,260 –> 00:20:24,330
But the thing is that the research
402
00:20:24,330 –> 00:20:28,800
that I ended up doing was all related
403
00:20:28,800 –> 00:20:32,940
to challenges that I either encountered
404
00:20:32,940 –> 00:20:37,940
personally in 13 years
of working in the field
405
00:20:38,640 –> 00:20:41,531
or things that I thought were really holes
406
00:20:41,531 –> 00:20:43,830
in the literature.
407
00:20:43,830 –> 00:20:44,850
Right.
408
00:20:44,850 –> 00:20:46,470
And so that’s another big transition
409
00:20:46,470 –> 00:20:48,150
that I wanna talk about was from teaching
410
00:20:48,150 –> 00:20:50,310
and administration to research.
411
00:20:50,310 –> 00:20:52,230
So that first grant that you came to,
412
00:20:52,230 –> 00:20:54,000
was that a research position,
413
00:20:54,000 –> 00:20:58,110
or were the future projects
that you worked on research?
414
00:20:58,110 –> 00:20:59,700
The first grant was a grant
415
00:20:59,700 –> 00:21:02,970
that had been originally
co-written by Wayne Fox,
416
00:21:02,970 –> 00:21:04,830
who was the longtime director
417
00:21:04,830 –> 00:21:07,350
of the center and Chigee Cloninger.
418
00:21:07,350 –> 00:21:11,100
It was a project to support students
419
00:21:11,100 –> 00:21:13,860
who were on the Vermont
DeafBlind Register.
420
00:21:13,860 –> 00:21:15,780
We now called it sensory impairment.
421
00:21:15,780 –> 00:21:19,030
But at the time, it was
the DeafBlind Register
422
00:21:20,790 –> 00:21:23,250
in inclusive classrooms around Vermont.
423
00:21:23,250 –> 00:21:26,130
And I became part of the Vermont eye team,
424
00:21:26,130 –> 00:21:29,400
and I serve statewide, supporting schools
425
00:21:29,400 –> 00:21:32,610
who were working with kids
who were on the register.
426
00:21:32,610 –> 00:21:36,900
Now, for people who maybe
are not in the deafblind
427
00:21:36,900 –> 00:21:39,330
or dual sensory field,
428
00:21:39,330 –> 00:21:42,760
people often think of like Helen Keller
429
00:21:43,920 –> 00:21:47,040
as a classic example of
somebody who’s deafblind.
430
00:21:47,040 –> 00:21:50,970
There was not the population
that we were serving.
431
00:21:50,970 –> 00:21:54,273
The vast, vast majority of students.
432
00:21:55,200 –> 00:22:00,000
And there were only about,
I think, 28 or 30 statewide
433
00:22:00,000 –> 00:22:03,440
who were considered deafblind
or at risk of deafblind
434
00:22:03,440 –> 00:22:05,493
as they met certain criteria.
435
00:22:07,770 –> 00:22:09,630
They were almost all students
436
00:22:09,630 –> 00:22:13,203
with quite intensive
multiple disabilities.
437
00:22:14,880 –> 00:22:17,550
Very few had verbal language,
438
00:22:17,550 –> 00:22:21,930
very few had the physical
capability to use sign language
439
00:22:21,930 –> 00:22:25,860
because of severe orthopedic disability.
440
00:22:25,860 –> 00:22:30,570
And so it was very difficult
to really fully know
441
00:22:30,570 –> 00:22:33,753
what their cognitive abilities were.
442
00:22:35,610 –> 00:22:38,100
We did what I think everybody
443
00:22:38,100 –> 00:22:42,240
at the Center on Disability believes in,
444
00:22:42,240 –> 00:22:44,040
which is we made decisions based on
445
00:22:44,040 –> 00:22:45,870
the least dangerous assumption.
446
00:22:45,870 –> 00:22:50,370
So we approached everyone
as if they were cognitively
447
00:22:50,370 –> 00:22:53,310
capable because that was the least
448
00:22:53,310 –> 00:22:54,870
dangerous way to approach them.
449
00:22:54,870 –> 00:22:55,703
[Jesse] Right.
450
00:22:57,000 –> 00:22:58,983
And so that led to,
451
00:23:00,600 –> 00:23:03,750
that was a grant-funded position,
452
00:23:03,750 –> 00:23:06,180
which was only gonna last for three years.
453
00:23:06,180 –> 00:23:08,130
And the only way I could
stay at the university
454
00:23:08,130 –> 00:23:11,100
was to start writing my
own grants, which I did.
455
00:23:11,100 –> 00:23:14,670
And that first grant was a
model demonstration grant.
456
00:23:14,670 –> 00:23:17,250
And then I wrote a
series of research grants
457
00:23:17,250 –> 00:23:20,010
and model demonstration
grants and training grants
458
00:23:20,010 –> 00:23:25,010
over the next 20 years to
fund myself and others here.
459
00:23:27,450 –> 00:23:29,400
And that’s where we started getting into
460
00:23:29,400 –> 00:23:34,400
some research and related
services, decision-making,
461
00:23:35,610 –> 00:23:38,313
and paraprofessionals
and service delivery.
462
00:23:39,330 –> 00:23:42,150
Yeah, that’s what got the ball rolling.
463
00:23:42,150 –> 00:23:43,230
Right.
464
00:23:43,230 –> 00:23:45,900
And I mean, and you talk about
sort of getting into research
465
00:23:45,900 –> 00:23:48,000
because you needed the
funding in order to stay here.
466
00:23:48,000 –> 00:23:49,620
And that was true for everybody.
467
00:23:49,620 –> 00:23:52,200
But I don’t think there
were many researchers here.
468
00:23:52,200 –> 00:23:53,650
There certainly aren’t today.
469
00:23:54,660 –> 00:23:56,520
So there’s lots of people
that were writing grants,
470
00:23:56,520 –> 00:23:58,740
but they might be a
personnel preparation grant
471
00:23:58,740 –> 00:24:00,333
or a training grant.
472
00:24:00,333 –> 00:24:03,543
Even when we were doing
model demonstration grants,
473
00:24:04,830 –> 00:24:08,100
I think that having gone through
474
00:24:08,100 –> 00:24:11,610
three graduate programs at Vermont,
475
00:24:11,610 –> 00:24:13,710
then Virginia, then Syracuse,
476
00:24:13,710 –> 00:24:17,970
I was exposed to a number of scholars
477
00:24:17,970 –> 00:24:22,970
who kind of socialized me to think
478
00:24:24,210 –> 00:24:26,910
that if I was doing something
479
00:24:26,910 –> 00:24:31,593
that was useful or potentially valuable,
480
00:24:32,730 –> 00:24:35,760
that I needed to disseminate it.
481
00:24:35,760 –> 00:24:40,157
And that the best way to
disseminate it was through writing.
482
00:24:43,650 –> 00:24:45,570
I was doing presentations as well.
483
00:24:45,570 –> 00:24:48,453
But through writing and
through published research,
484
00:24:50,010 –> 00:24:52,887
I felt like I was, in schools.,
485
00:24:54,406 –> 00:24:55,620
I had opportunities to do
486
00:24:55,620 –> 00:24:58,320
a lot of observing and collecting data.
487
00:24:58,320 –> 00:25:01,800
And I was trained as a
single subject researcher.
488
00:25:01,800 –> 00:25:05,880
And I did single subject
research in my early career,
489
00:25:05,880 –> 00:25:07,083
but not here.
490
00:25:08,250 –> 00:25:13,020
Once I got into the schools,
the nature of my research
491
00:25:13,020 –> 00:25:17,910
changed based on what schools would allow.
492
00:25:17,910 –> 00:25:18,743
Sure.
493
00:25:19,800 –> 00:25:22,410
So a lot of the research that I did
494
00:25:22,410 –> 00:25:24,360
was descriptive research,
495
00:25:24,360 –> 00:25:28,350
both qualitative and quantitative
descriptive research.
496
00:25:28,350 –> 00:25:31,590
And some of it was, a little bit of it
497
00:25:31,590 –> 00:25:33,630
was quasi-experimental,
498
00:25:33,630 –> 00:25:36,810
and some of it was evaluation research.
499
00:25:36,810 –> 00:25:41,310
But we pretty much,
throughout all of my projects,
500
00:25:41,310 –> 00:25:45,840
we always took data and
we always shared it.
501
00:25:45,840 –> 00:25:48,390
And sometimes we shared,
502
00:25:48,390 –> 00:25:51,030
we ended up sharing things
that we didn’t intend.
503
00:25:51,030 –> 00:25:55,680
Like the whole strand of the work
504
00:25:55,680 –> 00:25:59,100
that was done at the
center partially that I led
505
00:25:59,100 –> 00:26:01,773
on paraprofessionals in inclusive schools,
506
00:26:03,390 –> 00:26:05,820
we didn’t start that with a
grant on paraprofessionals.
507
00:26:05,820 –> 00:26:07,950
-Right.
-That started with a grant
508
00:26:07,950 –> 00:26:11,430
on unrelated services for
kids with deafblindness.
509
00:26:11,430 –> 00:26:16,430
And we ended up with a ton of data related
510
00:26:17,280 –> 00:26:22,280
to paraprofessionals that was
not part of our grant plan.
511
00:26:22,440 –> 00:26:25,297
But I remember talking
to the team and saying,
512
00:26:25,297 –> 00:26:28,533
“I think we’ve got some
pretty interesting stuff here.
513
00:26:29,617 –> 00:26:32,400
I think we should really
analyze these data.”
514
00:26:32,400 –> 00:26:37,353
And it ended up with the
publication of an article called,
515
00:26:39,120 –> 00:26:42,240
something like Helping or Hovering Effects
516
00:26:42,240 –> 00:26:44,550
of Instructional Assistant Proximity
517
00:26:44,550 –> 00:26:47,380
on Students With Disabilities.
518
00:26:47,380 –> 00:26:48,669
That sounds like the exact title.
519
00:26:48,669 –> 00:26:49,502
-It might be.
-Okay.
520
00:26:49,502 –> 00:26:50,335
It might be.
521
00:26:50,335 –> 00:26:51,168
Just something like that.
522
00:26:51,168 –> 00:26:52,001
It’s pretty close to that.
523
00:26:52,001 –> 00:26:54,323
It’s definitely starts
with helping or hovering,
524
00:26:55,290 –> 00:26:59,373
but it was published in 1997
in Exceptional Children.
525
00:27:01,140 –> 00:27:06,140
And that article turned out
to be really a turning point
526
00:27:08,250 –> 00:27:10,800
or a demarcation point in the literature
527
00:27:10,800 –> 00:27:12,573
related to paraprofessionals,
528
00:27:14,250 –> 00:27:19,250
and has become kind of a seminal article
529
00:27:19,680 –> 00:27:21,840
along with another one that came out
530
00:27:21,840 –> 00:27:24,390
of an early grant called
“I’ve Counted Jon”.
531
00:27:24,390 –> 00:27:26,550
Transformational experiences of students
532
00:27:26,550 –> 00:27:29,700
with disabilities in regular classes.
533
00:27:29,700 –> 00:27:32,400
Those both came out of early grants
534
00:27:32,400 –> 00:27:33,903
and early data collection.
535
00:27:35,580 –> 00:27:38,070
Yeah, well, I mean, so I
mentioned at the beginning,
536
00:27:38,070 –> 00:27:41,310
some of the things that I
gained from our mentorship
537
00:27:41,310 –> 00:27:43,950
and that idea of research is communication
538
00:27:43,950 –> 00:27:47,730
and sort of really like
giving back, in a sense,
539
00:27:47,730 –> 00:27:50,970
’cause as you described
in your own journey,
540
00:27:50,970 –> 00:27:53,130
and I don’t think it’s
really changed much,
541
00:27:53,130 –> 00:27:57,060
schools and different
communities are left on their own
542
00:27:57,060 –> 00:27:58,440
to figure things out.
543
00:27:58,440 –> 00:28:00,300
And they might come up
with amazing solutions
544
00:28:00,300 –> 00:28:01,830
that are exactly what they needed,
545
00:28:01,830 –> 00:28:03,870
or they might really spend a lot of time
546
00:28:03,870 –> 00:28:05,847
-reinventing the wheel.
-Yeah.
547
00:28:05,847 –> 00:28:08,610
And so this idea that no,
when you do something,
548
00:28:08,610 –> 00:28:10,200
you should share it.
549
00:28:10,200 –> 00:28:13,350
Again, my own, whether
it’s more traditional
550
00:28:13,350 –> 00:28:15,630
or just different experience in research,
551
00:28:15,630 –> 00:28:18,210
was always, no, you do research
because it’s almost like
552
00:28:18,210 –> 00:28:21,660
that’s the widgets we
create as researchers,
553
00:28:21,660 –> 00:28:23,370
or it’s part of career advancement.
554
00:28:23,370 –> 00:28:26,073
It’s something that’s a
pressure that you need to do.
555
00:28:27,452 –> 00:28:29,850
And in sort of just a demonstration
of your accomplishments
556
00:28:29,850 –> 00:28:32,190
in and of themselves as opposed to,
557
00:28:32,190 –> 00:28:34,350
no, it’s a communication tool.
558
00:28:34,350 –> 00:28:35,970
It’s just a way of sharing.
559
00:28:35,970 –> 00:28:40,050
It’s one of the reasons
why in many of the articles
560
00:28:40,050 –> 00:28:42,900
that I wrote over the
year, I tried to have
561
00:28:42,900 –> 00:28:45,840
some kind of catchy little subtitle
562
00:28:45,840 –> 00:28:47,820
or beginning, like helping her hovering.
563
00:28:47,820 –> 00:28:49,440
People remember that.
564
00:28:49,440 –> 00:28:51,870
Or “I’ve Counted Jon”, they remember that
565
00:28:51,870 –> 00:28:55,980
as opposed to some long academic title.
566
00:28:55,980 –> 00:28:56,813
Right.
567
00:28:56,813 –> 00:28:58,170
-Precarious or purposeful.
-Right.
568
00:28:58,170 –> 00:28:59,820
Yeah, yeah.
569
00:28:59,820 –> 00:29:01,233
-Simple, not easy.
-Yeah.
570
00:29:02,340 –> 00:29:04,170
Just little phrases that,
571
00:29:04,170 –> 00:29:08,220
because I was always really conscious of,
572
00:29:08,220 –> 00:29:11,220
I’m doing this because
I’m trying to influence
573
00:29:11,220 –> 00:29:15,120
certain people to improve opportunities
574
00:29:15,120 –> 00:29:17,220
and supports for people with disabilities.
575
00:29:17,220 –> 00:29:18,690
So who’s my audience?
576
00:29:18,690 –> 00:29:21,990
My audience, teachers, principals,
577
00:29:21,990 –> 00:29:24,843
special ed directors,
to some extent, parents.
578
00:29:26,880 –> 00:29:29,730
So it was one of the
reasons, it’s interesting,
579
00:29:29,730 –> 00:29:32,760
I came out of Syracuse,
and for people that know
580
00:29:32,760 –> 00:29:36,000
higher education at that
time, and this would’ve been
581
00:29:36,000 –> 00:29:39,543
in the mid-80s to the late 80s,
582
00:29:40,590 –> 00:29:43,530
Syracuse was a hotbed
of qualitative research.
583
00:29:43,530 –> 00:29:46,720
Some of the people who
were writing the most
584
00:29:48,480 –> 00:29:52,140
like widely used qualitative
textbooks at the time,
585
00:29:52,140 –> 00:29:54,630
Steven Taylor, Robert Bogdan,
586
00:29:54,630 –> 00:29:57,573
Sarah Beckwin were at Syracuse.
587
00:29:58,680 –> 00:30:02,583
And most of my classmates there
were on a qualitative track.
588
00:30:04,020 –> 00:30:04,920
And I was not.
589
00:30:04,920 –> 00:30:08,430
I was on a quantitative
track, which was different.
590
00:30:08,430 –> 00:30:12,690
But all of us who went to
Syracuse were all exposed
591
00:30:12,690 –> 00:30:16,740
at least at a introductory
level to qualitative research.
592
00:30:16,740 –> 00:30:20,943
And interestingly, I
always saw the value in it,
593
00:30:22,869 –> 00:30:26,337
and I started really doing it more fully
594
00:30:29,010 –> 00:30:30,963
once I left Syracuse.
595
00:30:33,060 –> 00:30:37,507
And my two most cited articles ever
596
00:30:39,030 –> 00:30:41,820
are qualitative, and a couple of others
597
00:30:41,820 –> 00:30:45,870
that are qualitative are also
among the kind of most used.
598
00:30:45,870 –> 00:30:49,050
And when I look at it and when I know
599
00:30:49,050 –> 00:30:51,690
about the feedback I’ve
received from people,
600
00:30:51,690 –> 00:30:53,700
it’s because people relate to it.
601
00:30:53,700 –> 00:30:55,590
They can see themselves,
602
00:30:55,590 –> 00:30:58,740
and they can see their own
circumstance in the data.
603
00:30:58,740 –> 00:31:03,690
In fact, I saved very
little from my office
604
00:31:03,690 –> 00:31:06,300
when I moved out, but
one of the things I found
605
00:31:06,300 –> 00:31:11,190
tucked away in a couple of journals
606
00:31:11,190 –> 00:31:13,980
were some letters that I had saved
607
00:31:13,980 –> 00:31:16,740
-[Jesse] Oh, wow.
-That I got after the icon
608
00:31:16,740 –> 00:31:19,650
John article was published.
609
00:31:19,650 –> 00:31:23,190
And I remember, one of
them said a colleague
610
00:31:23,190 –> 00:31:26,970
was sharing some responses
from some of his students,
611
00:31:26,970 –> 00:31:31,530
and one of them was like, “I
think you were eavesdropping
612
00:31:31,530 –> 00:31:35,700
in my teacher’s room because
I’ve heard people say
613
00:31:35,700 –> 00:31:39,780
the exact same quotes
that are in your paper.”
614
00:31:39,780 –> 00:31:44,780
And the other one that I
got from Bob Algozzine,
615
00:31:46,770 –> 00:31:50,400
who is just an amazing
special education scholar
616
00:31:50,400 –> 00:31:52,590
and has been for decades
617
00:31:52,590 –> 00:31:55,260
down at the University of
North Carolina-Charlotte,
618
00:31:55,260 –> 00:31:58,380
somebody who I respect so much.
619
00:31:58,380 –> 00:32:00,240
And so it was super meaningful for me
620
00:32:00,240 –> 00:32:02,190
to get a letter from that.
621
00:32:02,190 –> 00:32:05,280
He was the editor of Exceptional
Children at the time,
622
00:32:05,280 –> 00:32:10,110
and he was talking about his own feeling
623
00:32:10,110 –> 00:32:13,983
that basically, that
inclusion was the way to go.
624
00:32:16,680 –> 00:32:17,850
I hope I can get this right,
625
00:32:17,850 –> 00:32:21,000
because he made an analogy about swans,
626
00:32:21,000 –> 00:32:24,980
and basically that citing
a thousand white swans
627
00:32:28,500 –> 00:32:30,870
does not prove that all swans are white,
628
00:32:30,870 –> 00:32:33,030
but the citing of just one black swan
629
00:32:33,030 –> 00:32:35,760
proves that all swans aren’t white.
630
00:32:35,760 –> 00:32:38,557
And he basically was
saying like your article,
631
00:32:38,557 –> 00:32:43,557
“I’ve Counted Jon”,
and I should say credit
632
00:32:44,010 –> 00:32:49,010
to Ruth Dennis and Chigee
Cloninger and Susan Edelman
633
00:32:49,500 –> 00:32:52,400
and Richard Schattman who were
co-authors on that article,
634
00:32:54,000 –> 00:32:57,600
that our article was like a black swan,
635
00:32:57,600 –> 00:33:01,477
and it was gonna disrupt
things when people said,
636
00:33:01,477 –> 00:33:03,180
“Well, kids with severe,
’cause it was about kids
637
00:33:03,180 –> 00:33:04,887
with severe disabilities.”
638
00:33:06,270 –> 00:33:07,103
People were saying,
639
00:33:07,103 –> 00:33:09,000
“Well, you can’t include kids like that.”
640
00:33:09,000 –> 00:33:12,660
You can include these
kids, but not those kids.
641
00:33:12,660 –> 00:33:16,200
And he basically said, it’s
gonna make it much tougher
642
00:33:16,200 –> 00:33:18,450
on people to claim that these kids
643
00:33:18,450 –> 00:33:22,200
can’t be included when they
read the transformations
644
00:33:22,200 –> 00:33:25,320
of the teachers in this article..
645
00:33:25,320 –> 00:33:30,030
And so qualitative research, I mean,
646
00:33:30,030 –> 00:33:33,000
I’ve always liked mixed methods research,
647
00:33:33,000 –> 00:33:36,390
but qualitative research,
I think when done well,
648
00:33:36,390 –> 00:33:39,750
can be super powerful in telling the story
649
00:33:39,750 –> 00:33:44,010
and communicating to people
in a way that sometimes
650
00:33:44,010 –> 00:33:48,480
when the statistics
are really complicated,
651
00:33:48,480 –> 00:33:51,480
it’s like, you and I have had
this conversation many times.
652
00:33:51,480 –> 00:33:53,160
-Yes.
-Cause you know.
653
00:33:53,160 –> 00:33:56,010
You’re much more skilled
at statistics than I am.
654
00:33:56,010 –> 00:33:59,199
And I’ll be like, Jesse, you
gotta explain this to me.
655
00:33:59,199 –> 00:34:01,770
I can’t write about this stuff
656
00:34:01,770 –> 00:34:03,960
and we gotta translate this into lang,
657
00:34:03,960 –> 00:34:05,760
we can put the statistics in,
658
00:34:05,760 –> 00:34:07,200
but we’ve gotta put this in language
659
00:34:07,200 –> 00:34:09,870
that a teacher can
understand and relate to.
660
00:34:09,870 –> 00:34:11,210
Well, yeah, I mean, part
of it is explaining it.
661
00:34:11,210 –> 00:34:15,900
Part of it, it is the marriage
of both the quantitative
662
00:34:15,900 –> 00:34:17,760
and the qualitative, because again,
663
00:34:17,760 –> 00:34:21,450
my own background and
this, I feel like, again,
664
00:34:21,450 –> 00:34:23,343
is also sort of values that I got from you
665
00:34:23,343 –> 00:34:25,200
that were just so helpful to me,
666
00:34:25,200 –> 00:34:27,510
is that having exactly
the right statistical test
667
00:34:27,510 –> 00:34:29,880
for the specific situation that you’re in
668
00:34:29,880 –> 00:34:34,880
is not necessarily the
answer that is needed
669
00:34:35,220 –> 00:34:37,470
for any of the goals that
you might have for research.
670
00:34:37,470 –> 00:34:41,700
And again, often, the
sort of the the advice
671
00:34:41,700 –> 00:34:44,430
that I was getting was just
sort of research publication
672
00:34:44,430 –> 00:34:48,330
for its own sake is a value as opposed to,
673
00:34:48,330 –> 00:34:50,430
no, a teacher might wanna read this
674
00:34:50,430 –> 00:34:52,440
and might see themselves in it
675
00:34:52,440 –> 00:34:56,040
and then need to understand,
what did you learn?
676
00:34:56,040 –> 00:34:57,000
What came from this?
677
00:34:57,000 –> 00:34:58,170
-What should I do?
-One of your,
678
00:34:58,170 –> 00:35:03,170
one of your other mentors who
we both loved, John Bircher,
679
00:35:04,230 –> 00:35:07,290
I remember so clearly
early in my career here
680
00:35:07,290 –> 00:35:08,217
at the University of Vermont.
681
00:35:08,217 –> 00:35:10,140
And of course, for those who are listening
682
00:35:10,140 –> 00:35:13,530
and don’t know John, he
was a psychology professor
683
00:35:13,530 –> 00:35:15,240
on the faculty here for many years,
684
00:35:15,240 –> 00:35:17,313
along with his wife Sarah.
685
00:35:18,390 –> 00:35:20,430
And they did a lot of work around people
686
00:35:20,430 –> 00:35:22,830
with both developmental disabilities
687
00:35:22,830 –> 00:35:26,940
and people with kind of serious emotional
688
00:35:26,940 –> 00:35:30,150
behavioral issues and
mental health issues.
689
00:35:30,150 –> 00:35:34,050
And he always told me that
the simplest statistic
690
00:35:34,050 –> 00:35:35,790
is the most powerful.
691
00:35:35,790 –> 00:35:40,020
I mean, literally, as simple
as numbers and percentages.
692
00:35:40,020 –> 00:35:42,930
And I think that that’s true.
693
00:35:42,930 –> 00:35:46,020
To go from sort of like
the most traditional roots
694
00:35:46,020 –> 00:35:47,940
of sort of behaviorist principles,
695
00:35:47,940 –> 00:35:50,490
which people say are
kind of stripping away
696
00:35:50,490 –> 00:35:55,490
all humanity of, whether it’s in teaching
697
00:35:55,823 –> 00:35:57,840
or in clinical psych,
which is my background.
698
00:35:57,840 –> 00:36:01,410
Both of you took that to
like what are the tools
699
00:36:01,410 –> 00:36:03,420
from those sort of quantitative
700
00:36:03,420 –> 00:36:04,530
and whether it’s a single case
701
00:36:04,530 –> 00:36:07,623
or multiple folks for communication.
702
00:36:08,868 –> 00:36:11,640
And I can picture of the
graphs that I created with you
703
00:36:11,640 –> 00:36:13,500
and the graphs that I created with John.
704
00:36:13,500 –> 00:36:15,990
And it was really just
to communicate the things
705
00:36:15,990 –> 00:36:18,930
that are happening that you
need to pay attention to.
706
00:36:18,930 –> 00:36:19,950
-Yeah.
-But it’s not
707
00:36:19,950 –> 00:36:21,270
the whole story.
708
00:36:21,270 –> 00:36:23,220
The real story is what does this person
709
00:36:23,220 –> 00:36:24,390
want out of their life?
710
00:36:24,390 –> 00:36:26,490
There was a guy who was
a part of the faculty
711
00:36:26,490 –> 00:36:31,140
that was working during
the first summer program.
712
00:36:31,140 –> 00:36:33,750
His name is Michael Friedel.
713
00:36:33,750 –> 00:36:36,210
And he told me that he had
714
00:36:36,210 –> 00:36:39,300
some of the same kind of concerns.
715
00:36:39,300 –> 00:36:42,150
And he said that one of
the ways that he was able
716
00:36:42,150 –> 00:36:45,300
to understand it better for himself
717
00:36:45,300 –> 00:36:48,540
was to think of these
behavioral approaches
718
00:36:48,540 –> 00:36:52,650
as humanistic empiricism,
719
00:36:52,650 –> 00:36:55,683
where you were pursuing humanistic aims,
720
00:36:56,910 –> 00:36:59,580
but using empirically sound approaches,
721
00:36:59,580 –> 00:37:03,540
because like as a teacher of kids
722
00:37:03,540 –> 00:37:04,860
that had more intensive need,
723
00:37:04,860 –> 00:37:07,110
for example, I had a student
724
00:37:07,110 –> 00:37:11,550
who had really, really severe
head banging behaviors.
725
00:37:11,550 –> 00:37:15,730
I mean, he would put his
head through drywall.
726
00:37:17,400 –> 00:37:20,940
He had a kind of a permanent callous
727
00:37:20,940 –> 00:37:22,890
on his forehead from hitting his head.
728
00:37:22,890 –> 00:37:25,560
He was in danger of concussion
729
00:37:25,560 –> 00:37:28,470
and retinal detachment all the time.
730
00:37:28,470 –> 00:37:33,470
And trying to help him reduce that
731
00:37:34,020 –> 00:37:35,790
through positive approaches,
732
00:37:35,790 –> 00:37:39,450
positive behavioral approaches
as opposed to punishments
733
00:37:39,450 –> 00:37:43,980
or negative kind of things
was really important,
734
00:37:43,980 –> 00:37:45,720
really important in his life.
735
00:37:45,720 –> 00:37:50,451
And so I kind of reluctantly learned
736
00:37:50,451 –> 00:37:52,500
these behavioral approaches.
737
00:37:52,500 –> 00:37:55,770
And then I went back into
my classroom in the fall,
738
00:37:55,770 –> 00:38:00,240
and I thought, well,
I’ve spent all this time
739
00:38:00,240 –> 00:38:01,073
learning this stuff.
740
00:38:01,073 –> 00:38:02,550
I should try it out.
741
00:38:02,550 –> 00:38:06,210
So I wrote systematic
instructional programs
742
00:38:06,210 –> 00:38:08,130
for my students’ IEP goals.
743
00:38:08,130 –> 00:38:13,130
And those kids learned more
in the first two months
744
00:38:15,330 –> 00:38:17,940
than they had the whole previous year.
745
00:38:17,940 –> 00:38:21,510
And it was because we were using sound
746
00:38:21,510 –> 00:38:25,860
instructional procedures and
doing database approaches,
747
00:38:25,860 –> 00:38:27,643
database decision making and so on.
748
00:38:27,643 –> 00:38:29,610
And then I was hooked.
749
00:38:29,610 –> 00:38:32,340
But when I always wanna use it
750
00:38:32,340 –> 00:38:35,370
and always when I taught the
behavior analysis course,
751
00:38:35,370 –> 00:38:37,380
I think that the behavior analysis course
752
00:38:37,380 –> 00:38:42,063
that was taught here at UVM was different
753
00:38:42,960 –> 00:38:46,050
than a lot of what is
taught in behavior analysis
754
00:38:46,050 –> 00:38:49,830
around the country, because
the idea that behavior analysis
755
00:38:49,830 –> 00:38:54,830
has a heart is not anything
that we invented here.
756
00:38:56,490 –> 00:38:59,010
I mean, it goes all the
way back to Montrose Wolf,
757
00:38:59,010 –> 00:39:02,250
who was one of the key
people along with folks
758
00:39:02,250 –> 00:39:05,010
like Donald Bear at the
University of Kansas
759
00:39:05,010 –> 00:39:07,770
and a whole bunch of others
at the University of Kansas
760
00:39:07,770 –> 00:39:10,107
back in the 1960s and ’70s.
761
00:39:10,107 –> 00:39:13,830
And he wrote an article about
applied behavior analysis
762
00:39:13,830 –> 00:39:18,830
finding its heart in terms of
talking about social validity.
763
00:39:19,500 –> 00:39:21,990
And that’s a classic in the field
764
00:39:21,990 –> 00:39:24,120
of applied behavior analysis.
765
00:39:24,120 –> 00:39:26,100
And you know what?
766
00:39:26,100 –> 00:39:27,420
The way we taught applied behavior
767
00:39:27,420 –> 00:39:29,220
analysis here was two ways.
768
00:39:29,220 –> 00:39:33,500
One was, there are certain
negative punishment,
769
00:39:35,520 –> 00:39:37,680
response, cost, overcorrection.
770
00:39:37,680 –> 00:39:39,810
There are a whole bunch of procedures
771
00:39:39,810 –> 00:39:41,850
that we made students aware of,
772
00:39:41,850 –> 00:39:45,060
but we didn’t teach or we
didn’t encourage them to use,
773
00:39:45,060 –> 00:39:48,570
because we thought that
using those approaches
774
00:39:48,570 –> 00:39:51,570
would interfere with them developing
775
00:39:51,570 –> 00:39:54,150
constructive relationships
with their students.
776
00:39:54,150 –> 00:39:58,290
And if you think that a positive
constructive relationship
777
00:39:58,290 –> 00:40:01,950
is the basis for a safe
learning environment
778
00:40:01,950 –> 00:40:03,210
and a healthy learning environment,
779
00:40:03,210 –> 00:40:04,890
you don’t wanna do things with kids
780
00:40:04,890 –> 00:40:06,810
that are gonna interfere with you
781
00:40:06,810 –> 00:40:08,610
developing that positive stuff.
782
00:40:08,610 –> 00:40:13,534
So we just said, “Yeah,
these things exist.”
783
00:40:13,534 –> 00:40:15,180
They were used in the olden days.
784
00:40:15,180 –> 00:40:16,680
Some people still use them today,
785
00:40:16,680 –> 00:40:19,230
but we really don’t encourage
you to use these things.
786
00:40:19,230 –> 00:40:21,690
We’re gonna stick on
all the positive stuff,
787
00:40:21,690 –> 00:40:24,540
and we’re gonna talk
about how we can apply
788
00:40:24,540 –> 00:40:27,330
these things in the most natural way.
789
00:40:27,330 –> 00:40:31,260
So people think, oh, ABA’s
only for behavior problems,
790
00:40:31,260 –> 00:40:33,210
only for kids with autism.
791
00:40:33,210 –> 00:40:38,210
It’s only this kind of mass
trial, discrete trial training.
792
00:40:38,460 –> 00:40:41,820
It’s like, no, it can be
done in a very natural way,
793
00:40:41,820 –> 00:40:44,010
incorporated into the regular class.
794
00:40:44,010 –> 00:40:48,030
And in fact, I would argue
that whether they label it
795
00:40:48,030 –> 00:40:51,570
as such or identify it as such,
796
00:40:51,570 –> 00:40:55,350
every parent on the planet and
every teacher on the planet
797
00:40:55,350 –> 00:40:57,690
has used behavioral approaches.
798
00:40:57,690 –> 00:41:00,090
They may or may not use
them systematically.
799
00:41:00,090 –> 00:41:01,860
They may or may not use them correctly.
800
00:41:01,860 –> 00:41:03,780
They may or may not label them.
801
00:41:03,780 –> 00:41:06,960
But they’ve all used modeling and queuing
802
00:41:06,960 –> 00:41:09,030
and fading supports and providing
803
00:41:09,030 –> 00:41:11,133
different types of prompts.
804
00:41:12,045 –> 00:41:13,410
-Feedback, yeah.
-And feedback
805
00:41:13,410 –> 00:41:17,935
in terms of positive reinforcement
or correction procedures.
806
00:41:17,935 –> 00:41:20,160
I mean, it’s just ubiquitous.
807
00:41:20,160 –> 00:41:24,030
It’s not like behavioral
approaches were invented.
808
00:41:24,030 –> 00:41:27,900
They’re just really a
description of what humans,
809
00:41:27,900 –> 00:41:30,000
how humans teach each other.
810
00:41:30,000 –> 00:41:33,540
And then in applied
behavior analysis, often,
811
00:41:33,540 –> 00:41:38,280
you’re exaggerating those
or you’re doing them
812
00:41:38,280 –> 00:41:41,190
very systematically to try to get
813
00:41:41,190 –> 00:41:42,963
a specific behavior change.
814
00:41:44,004 –> 00:41:46,980
But they can be used extremely naturally,
815
00:41:46,980 –> 00:41:50,160
and often are by parents and teachers
816
00:41:50,160 –> 00:41:53,250
without even realizing what
they’re doing or naming it.
817
00:41:53,250 –> 00:41:58,200
So I worry sometimes that with people
818
00:41:58,200 –> 00:42:01,290
being attracted to ABA or repelled by it,
819
00:42:01,290 –> 00:42:04,260
that the people that are repelled by it
820
00:42:04,260 –> 00:42:08,523
are focusing on the misuses of the tools.
821
00:42:09,990 –> 00:42:14,990
The fact that it has been
used in ways that harm people,
822
00:42:16,650 –> 00:42:18,210
physically or emotionally,
823
00:42:18,210 –> 00:42:23,194
it has been used to control
people inappropriately.
824
00:42:23,194 –> 00:42:24,510
-And still is.
-And still is.
825
00:42:24,510 –> 00:42:25,650
But it doesn’t have to be.
826
00:42:25,650 –> 00:42:28,960
There’s nothing about
the tools themselves.
827
00:42:28,960 –> 00:42:33,000
that you can also use ABA procedures
828
00:42:33,000 –> 00:42:35,880
to improve someone’s communication skills
829
00:42:35,880 –> 00:42:39,813
that encourage them to
be able to self-advocate,
830
00:42:41,280 –> 00:42:45,210
to open up opportunities for them in work
831
00:42:45,210 –> 00:42:47,760
and recreation and communication
832
00:42:47,760 –> 00:42:51,633
and all kinds of really positive things.
833
00:42:53,580 –> 00:42:58,580
And so I think that it’s too
bad that it’s so polarizing,
834
00:42:59,160 –> 00:43:03,393
because I think if it’s
looked at in a particular way,
835
00:43:04,260 –> 00:43:09,260
it’s hard to deny that these
are legitimate strategies,
836
00:43:09,720 –> 00:43:14,107
but it’s how people use them
and to what end they use them.
837
00:43:14,107 –> 00:43:15,960
And that’s where the heart part comes in.
838
00:43:15,960 –> 00:43:20,430
So when people think of
special ed or related fields
839
00:43:20,430 –> 00:43:25,430
as only about using
research-based approaches,
840
00:43:26,820 –> 00:43:30,627
everything we do is
rooted in a set of values.
841
00:43:30,627 –> 00:43:35,070
And if it’s not rooted in a
set of constructive values
842
00:43:35,070 –> 00:43:39,660
that really support and raise people
843
00:43:39,660 –> 00:43:44,040
with disabilities or others,
844
00:43:44,040 –> 00:43:49,040
then it’s either not very
useful or it could be harmful.
845
00:43:49,320 –> 00:43:53,070
So you always gotta check the relationship
846
00:43:53,070 –> 00:43:56,670
between I think the
values and the practices.
847
00:43:56,670 –> 00:43:58,140
Yeah, well, I agree with you,
848
00:43:58,140 –> 00:44:00,780
because that’s another
thing that you taught me.
849
00:44:00,780 –> 00:44:04,800
So I remember when we first
started working together
850
00:44:04,800 –> 00:44:09,430
on our research, and
I knew about inclusion
851
00:44:10,590 –> 00:44:13,020
and trying to help
students with disabilities
852
00:44:13,020 –> 00:44:16,550
and help schools keep the
students with disabilities
853
00:44:16,550 –> 00:44:19,080
in the regular education classrooms.
854
00:44:19,080 –> 00:44:21,480
And the more we looked into that
855
00:44:21,480 –> 00:44:25,140
as part of the numbers
we count in EVOLVE Plus,
856
00:44:25,140 –> 00:44:28,090
and the more we were sort of
pulling from the national data
857
00:44:29,010 –> 00:44:32,460
and thinking about research
grants, and especially,
858
00:44:32,460 –> 00:44:34,860
we looked at the Institute
of Education Sciences grant.
859
00:44:34,860 –> 00:44:36,930
It was all about academics.
860
00:44:36,930 –> 00:44:40,380
Like that really has to be
the end goal of everything.
861
00:44:40,380 –> 00:44:43,050
Arguably, it should be for education.
862
00:44:43,050 –> 00:44:44,470
And I remember the conversation as,
863
00:44:44,470 –> 00:44:46,620
okay, so we’re focused on inclusion,
864
00:44:46,620 –> 00:44:48,510
and they’re focused on academics,
865
00:44:48,510 –> 00:44:49,890
so that’s what we need to study.
866
00:44:49,890 –> 00:44:51,300
We need to demonstrate the students
867
00:44:51,300 –> 00:44:53,280
with higher levels of inclusion,
868
00:44:53,280 –> 00:44:56,340
or we can look at that
lead to better academics.
869
00:44:56,340 –> 00:44:59,670
And I love you that you just
sort of stopped everything
870
00:44:59,670 –> 00:45:02,760
and said there’s civil rights issues,
871
00:45:02,760 –> 00:45:04,740
there’s things that
conflict with our values,
872
00:45:04,740 –> 00:45:06,600
and then there’s research questions.
873
00:45:06,600 –> 00:45:08,070
And so as we’re talking about behaviors
874
00:45:08,070 –> 00:45:10,440
and when we’re talking about research,
875
00:45:10,440 –> 00:45:12,330
this is one of the things I’ve taken
876
00:45:12,330 –> 00:45:17,280
is that these are tools
in service of bigger-
877
00:45:17,280 –> 00:45:18,240
-Yeah, it could-
-Humanistic values.
878
00:45:18,240 –> 00:45:20,490
I’m sure part of the conversation we had
879
00:45:20,490 –> 00:45:23,070
was that inclusion is
not a research question.
880
00:45:23,070 –> 00:45:24,660
That was exactly what you said, yes.
881
00:45:24,660 –> 00:45:26,940
Whether or not kids get included
882
00:45:26,940 –> 00:45:28,800
is not a research question.
883
00:45:28,800 –> 00:45:31,410
An appropriate research
question is around,
884
00:45:31,410 –> 00:45:34,020
in what ways can we better,
885
00:45:34,020 –> 00:45:39,020
more successfully include more
kids with more diverse needs?
886
00:45:39,120 –> 00:45:43,230
But not whether or not,
because they are human beings
887
00:45:43,230 –> 00:45:47,160
who deserve and have the
right to the same civil rights
888
00:45:47,160 –> 00:45:49,860
and opportunities as any other person.
889
00:45:49,860 –> 00:45:53,910
So people that say, well,
we’ve done this study,
890
00:45:53,910 –> 00:45:57,300
and inclusion doesn’t
produce this outcome.
891
00:45:57,300 –> 00:45:59,283
Therefore, kids should be segregated.
892
00:46:00,630 –> 00:46:02,880
To me, that’s a misguided thing.
893
00:46:02,880 –> 00:46:05,730
And if you look at the law, if
you look at the federal law,
894
00:46:05,730 –> 00:46:08,160
-it’s rooted in values.
-Yes.
895
00:46:08,160 –> 00:46:10,050
It tries to implement those values
896
00:46:10,050 –> 00:46:13,260
by asking people to use
research-based approaches,
897
00:46:13,260 –> 00:46:14,790
but it’s rooted in values.
898
00:46:14,790 –> 00:46:18,060
We’re still not following nationally
899
00:46:18,060 –> 00:46:23,060
all the values that are embedded
or enshrined in the law.
900
00:46:23,070 –> 00:46:27,030
And this is evidenced by
the dramatic differences
901
00:46:27,030 –> 00:46:30,363
across the country and who’s
segregated and who’s included.
902
00:46:31,269 –> 00:46:35,370
And even kids that are “included”,
903
00:46:35,370 –> 00:46:36,780
we got a lot of work to do.
904
00:46:36,780 –> 00:46:38,643
I mean, it’s not pretty.
905
00:46:40,530 –> 00:46:42,513
There’s no utopias out there.
906
00:46:43,890 –> 00:46:45,983
Well, I mean, and some of the,
907
00:46:45,983 –> 00:46:47,520
I mean, they’re not utopias,
908
00:46:47,520 –> 00:46:49,770
but I think some of the
examples that you’ve shown me
909
00:46:49,770 –> 00:46:51,870
over time as we’ve been
working in schools,
910
00:46:51,870 –> 00:46:54,930
and you were always inclusion-oriented.
911
00:46:54,930 –> 00:46:56,283
It was aspiration.
912
00:46:57,450 –> 00:46:59,760
It always came down to it was a community
913
00:46:59,760 –> 00:47:02,070
of people trying to figure it out.
914
00:47:02,070 –> 00:47:04,380
And I think, and you can
talk more about this,
915
00:47:04,380 –> 00:47:07,620
but I mean, a lot of the
more recent work that you did
916
00:47:07,620 –> 00:47:10,170
was just how do schools do that,
917
00:47:10,170 –> 00:47:12,810
given the environments that they’re in?
918
00:47:12,810 –> 00:47:14,691
So the resources that they have
919
00:47:14,691 –> 00:47:16,137
and the pressures that they’re under and-
920
00:47:16,137 –> 00:47:17,910
And they’re under a lot of pressures.
921
00:47:17,910 –> 00:47:22,530
I mean, I think that what
schools are being asked to do
922
00:47:22,530 –> 00:47:26,370
and what teachers and
administrators do, frankly,
923
00:47:26,370 –> 00:47:28,590
I think it’s harder today than it was
924
00:47:28,590 –> 00:47:31,920
when I was a teacher and an
administrator, because frankly,
925
00:47:31,920 –> 00:47:34,170
when I was a teacher,
a special ed teacher,
926
00:47:34,170 –> 00:47:36,480
-it was like the wild west.
-Sure.
927
00:47:36,480 –> 00:47:41,480
As long as like nobody was
getting seriously damaged,
928
00:47:41,760 –> 00:47:44,760
just do whatever you’re
doing with those kids.
929
00:47:44,760 –> 00:47:46,683
Nobody’s complaining, we’re happy.
930
00:47:48,450 –> 00:47:51,633
The expectations were so low.
931
00:47:52,680 –> 00:47:55,366
And of course part of
that changed nationally
932
00:47:55,366 –> 00:48:00,270
with the reauthorization,
933
00:48:00,270 –> 00:48:03,000
I think it was the ’97
reauthorization of IDEA,
934
00:48:03,000 –> 00:48:05,850
where they put in the
requirement for access
935
00:48:05,850 –> 00:48:07,740
to the general ed curriculum,
936
00:48:07,740 –> 00:48:09,930
because so many kids with disabilities
937
00:48:09,930 –> 00:48:11,580
were not getting access.
938
00:48:11,580 –> 00:48:14,553
They’re still not, in many cases.
939
00:48:15,630 –> 00:48:20,373
So yeah, it’s changed
so much over the years.
940
00:48:22,110 –> 00:48:24,210
I mean, I don’t think
I’ve ever heard you say
941
00:48:24,210 –> 00:48:26,160
exactly that phrase,
but I’m not surprised.
942
00:48:26,160 –> 00:48:28,260
-Which phrase?
-Well, just that it’s
943
00:48:28,260 –> 00:48:29,807
harder today to work in a school.
944
00:48:29,807 –> 00:48:32,760
That’s just my speculation is,
945
00:48:32,760 –> 00:48:36,660
’cause even though I haven’t
been a classroom teacher
946
00:48:36,660 –> 00:48:40,800
or a direct service
provider or administrator
947
00:48:40,800 –> 00:48:45,800
in a very long time, all of
our research was in schools,
948
00:48:46,620 –> 00:48:51,240
and interacting with
teachers and administrators
949
00:48:51,240 –> 00:48:54,780
and families and just
seeing what’s happening.
950
00:48:54,780 –> 00:48:58,350
And this leads to, you
had mentioned earlier
951
00:48:58,350 –> 00:49:00,870
of the phrase precarious or purposeful.
952
00:49:00,870 –> 00:49:03,220
It’s one of the things that sent me on
953
00:49:04,140 –> 00:49:09,140
along with you on a path to
look at service delivery issues,
954
00:49:09,210 –> 00:49:12,993
because what I kept
thinking to myself was,
955
00:49:14,370 –> 00:49:17,790
I wonder if I could have been a successful
956
00:49:17,790 –> 00:49:21,630
special ed teacher under these conditions,
957
00:49:21,630 –> 00:49:26,630
because I would like to
think that I was a successful
958
00:49:26,700 –> 00:49:30,810
special ed teacher in terms of
my kids learning some things
959
00:49:30,810 –> 00:49:33,450
and working with parents and so on.
960
00:49:33,450 –> 00:49:38,450
But you always think, I wish
I knew then what I know now
961
00:49:38,730 –> 00:49:41,130
and like all the missed opportunities
962
00:49:41,130 –> 00:49:44,340
to teach kids certain things
or to do certain things.
963
00:49:44,340 –> 00:49:46,200
Those kind of haunt you.
964
00:49:46,200 –> 00:49:51,200
But when I would see a teacher
with a caseload of 18 kids
965
00:49:55,050 –> 00:49:58,110
and supervising five paraprofessionals
966
00:49:58,110 –> 00:50:02,160
and working across five grade levels
967
00:50:02,160 –> 00:50:05,670
with a dozen different teachers.
968
00:50:05,670 –> 00:50:10,590
And I think it’s impossible.
969
00:50:10,590 –> 00:50:12,870
How can they do this work?
970
00:50:12,870 –> 00:50:17,520
And we have a huge turnover
burnout problem in special ed.
971
00:50:17,520 –> 00:50:19,066
-And there’s your answer.
-Yeah.
972
00:50:19,066 –> 00:50:21,570
-A lot of ’em can’t.
-Yeah, a lot of ’em can’t.
973
00:50:21,570 –> 00:50:25,710
And so you know, ’cause
you were part of this work.
974
00:50:25,710 –> 00:50:29,910
Part of our work on service delivery
975
00:50:29,910 –> 00:50:33,840
was rooted in the idea that
you can have the best staff,
976
00:50:33,840 –> 00:50:36,210
you can have people
that are really skilled
977
00:50:36,210 –> 00:50:38,943
and have great values
and working really hard,
978
00:50:40,380 –> 00:50:44,310
and they might have good
instructional approaches
979
00:50:44,310 –> 00:50:46,440
and even in sound curriculum.
980
00:50:46,440 –> 00:50:49,830
But if they don’t have
a service delivery model
981
00:50:49,830 –> 00:50:53,460
in which to work that is conducive to them
982
00:50:53,460 –> 00:50:56,670
using those skills and
implementing those values,
983
00:50:56,670 –> 00:50:58,530
realizing those values,
984
00:50:58,530 –> 00:51:00,900
it kind of is all for naught.
985
00:51:00,900 –> 00:51:04,800
But all of the federal
funding is about curriculum
986
00:51:04,800 –> 00:51:06,480
and instruction and behavior support.
987
00:51:06,480 –> 00:51:09,480
And almost nothing on service delivery.
988
00:51:09,480 –> 00:51:11,640
And to me, that’s kind of
the third leg of the stool
989
00:51:11,640 –> 00:51:14,370
that people aren’t paying attention to.
990
00:51:14,370 –> 00:51:17,193
The Precarious or Purposeful,
as you know, is based on,
991
00:51:18,418 –> 00:51:20,700
we’ve got a cartoon that’s in that article
992
00:51:20,700 –> 00:51:25,200
that’s in the journal
inclusion that shows a house,
993
00:51:25,200 –> 00:51:29,550
and it’s precariously
on the edge of a cliff,
994
00:51:29,550 –> 00:51:31,050
overhanging cliff.
995
00:51:31,050 –> 00:51:32,640
And there’s a big rope around it.
996
00:51:32,640 –> 00:51:35,568
It’s being held back from
falling over the cliff
997
00:51:35,568 –> 00:51:38,490
by an army of paraprofessionals.
998
00:51:38,490 –> 00:51:42,595
And it asks On The Brink,
999
00:51:42,595 –> 00:51:43,710
do you know On The Brink?
1000
00:51:43,710 –> 00:51:48,060
And problems with service delivery models,
1001
00:51:48,060 –> 00:51:51,180
because every year it
seems like the pressures
1002
00:51:51,180 –> 00:51:54,750
that schools are under
financially and otherwise,
1003
00:51:54,750 –> 00:51:57,330
they try to get as close to the edge
1004
00:51:57,330 –> 00:52:02,220
as they can financially and resource-wise.
1005
00:52:02,220 –> 00:52:07,020
And then any little thing
pushes it over the edge,
1006
00:52:07,020 –> 00:52:09,600
and it’s like, this is
not where you wanna live.
1007
00:52:09,600 –> 00:52:11,160
You gotta live back here.
1008
00:52:11,160 –> 00:52:14,277
How do we create models
that live back here,
1009
00:52:14,277 –> 00:52:16,683
and we move within a reasonable range.
1010
00:52:17,580 –> 00:52:20,880
And that means reducing caseload sizes,
1011
00:52:20,880 –> 00:52:24,519
reducing the number of grade levels
1012
00:52:24,519 –> 00:52:27,300
that special educators are working in,
1013
00:52:27,300 –> 00:52:30,240
reducing the number of different teachers.
1014
00:52:30,240 –> 00:52:33,930
So as you know, we took existing data
1015
00:52:33,930 –> 00:52:38,400
from 69 Vermont schools and
looked at how that could be
1016
00:52:38,400 –> 00:52:41,583
reimagined, reconfigured
so that it was real.
1017
00:52:42,538 –> 00:52:43,510
No new money.
1018
00:52:43,510 –> 00:52:45,173
No new money.
1019
00:52:46,680 –> 00:52:50,040
Turns out, you can have
models of service delivery
1020
00:52:50,040 –> 00:52:54,420
if you’re proactive, where
you’ve got one special educator
1021
00:52:54,420 –> 00:52:56,370
for every three or four teachers,
1022
00:52:56,370 –> 00:52:58,170
hopefully all at the same grade level,
1023
00:52:58,170 –> 00:53:00,360
or at least continuous grade levels.
1024
00:53:00,360 –> 00:53:04,410
Now, you’ve reduced the
amount of curricular content
1025
00:53:04,410 –> 00:53:07,590
that the special educator
needs to be thinking about
1026
00:53:07,590 –> 00:53:10,920
and responsible to
support with the teachers
1027
00:53:10,920 –> 00:53:13,350
and reducing the number of teachers,
1028
00:53:13,350 –> 00:53:15,580
which changes the communication
1029
00:53:17,520 –> 00:53:19,830
and embedding them in those environments.
1030
00:53:19,830 –> 00:53:24,830
And that you can do that
by reallocating resources.
1031
00:53:25,710 –> 00:53:29,492
Vermont of course has
historically been extremely heavy
1032
00:53:29,492 –> 00:53:32,820
on the use of paraprofessionals.
1033
00:53:32,820 –> 00:53:35,490
And if you trade some of those positions,
1034
00:53:35,490 –> 00:53:37,770
then you’re gonna have fewer people,
1035
00:53:37,770 –> 00:53:40,680
but you’re gonna have more
highly skilled people.
1036
00:53:40,680 –> 00:53:42,870
And that’s nothing against
the paraprofessionals.
1037
00:53:42,870 –> 00:53:46,343
I mean, they’re a very important part
1038
00:53:46,343 –> 00:53:47,610
of the school community.
1039
00:53:47,610 –> 00:53:52,020
They work really hard,
but it’s not fair to them,
1040
00:53:52,020 –> 00:53:53,760
and it’s not fair to students
1041
00:53:53,760 –> 00:53:56,223
to treat them as if they are teachers.
1042
00:53:57,270 –> 00:54:00,990
They don’t get compensated
to function as teachers.
1043
00:54:00,990 –> 00:54:02,850
They’re not trained most of the time.
1044
00:54:02,850 –> 00:54:05,190
There are occasionally certified teachers
1045
00:54:05,190 –> 00:54:06,780
working as paraprofessionals.
1046
00:54:06,780 –> 00:54:08,283
But you can’t count on that.
1047
00:54:09,253 –> 00:54:11,340
And what people fail to realize is that
1048
00:54:11,340 –> 00:54:15,180
it’s an equity issue for
kids with disabilities.
1049
00:54:15,180 –> 00:54:17,310
If you don’t have a disability,
1050
00:54:17,310 –> 00:54:19,980
you get all of your instruction
1051
00:54:19,980 –> 00:54:24,980
from a highly qualified,
certified licensed teacher.
1052
00:54:25,320 –> 00:54:27,930
If you have a mild disability,
1053
00:54:27,930 –> 00:54:29,880
if you have a specific
learning disability,
1054
00:54:29,880 –> 00:54:32,880
speech language impairment,
high functioning autism,
1055
00:54:32,880 –> 00:54:35,910
you are pretty likely
to get the vast majority
1056
00:54:35,910 –> 00:54:39,000
of your instruction
from a highly qualified
1057
00:54:39,000 –> 00:54:41,430
teacher and/or special educator.
1058
00:54:41,430 –> 00:54:42,840
A combination.
1059
00:54:42,840 –> 00:54:44,880
If you have a lower incidence disability,
1060
00:54:44,880 –> 00:54:46,760
if you have an intellectual disability,
1061
00:54:46,760 –> 00:54:51,210
if you have severe
physical and either sensory
1062
00:54:51,210 –> 00:54:53,280
or intellectual disability in combination,
1063
00:54:53,280 –> 00:54:55,770
any kind of developmental disability,
1064
00:54:55,770 –> 00:54:58,890
you are very likely to
get a very high percentage
1065
00:54:58,890 –> 00:55:02,190
of your education from a paraprofessional
1066
00:55:02,190 –> 00:55:05,940
who not only is not as skilled
or trained as the teachers,
1067
00:55:05,940 –> 00:55:08,523
but is substantively unsupervised.
1068
00:55:09,990 –> 00:55:11,370
And that’s based on the data.
1069
00:55:11,370 –> 00:55:14,550
And multiple studies demonstrate that.
1070
00:55:14,550 –> 00:55:18,390
And what people don’t seem to recognize
1071
00:55:18,390 –> 00:55:22,140
is that is a fundamental equity problem
1072
00:55:22,140 –> 00:55:24,367
for people with disabilities,
1073
00:55:24,367 –> 00:55:28,980
’cause the mentality
that undergirds that is,
1074
00:55:28,980 –> 00:55:32,640
do they really need a
highly qualified person?
1075
00:55:32,640 –> 00:55:35,670
Isn’t it okay if they just
have like a nice mom or dad
1076
00:55:35,670 –> 00:55:39,603
who is willing to work
for close to minimum wage?
1077
00:55:41,010 –> 00:55:42,840
Well, because that’s not,
1078
00:55:42,840 –> 00:55:45,270
I think for most, that’s not
even how it’s understood.
1079
00:55:45,270 –> 00:55:46,620
The way they’re thinking about is,
1080
00:55:46,620 –> 00:55:50,190
well, we all have access to
the teacher in the school,
1081
00:55:50,190 –> 00:55:53,040
and you’re also getting the support.
1082
00:55:53,040 –> 00:55:54,270
But that’s what the data showed us.
1083
00:55:54,270 –> 00:55:55,230
That’s not what’s happening.
1084
00:55:55,230 –> 00:55:56,063
That’s not what, yeah,
1085
00:55:56,063 –> 00:55:57,450
that’s not what the data shows
1086
00:55:57,450 –> 00:55:59,800
for kids with developmental
disabilities, yeah.
1087
00:56:01,755 –> 00:56:04,020
We have some students who are getting
1088
00:56:04,020 –> 00:56:08,490
80 plus percent of their
instruction from paraprofessionals
1089
00:56:08,490 –> 00:56:11,013
and they’re not seeing
teachers hardly at all.
1090
00:56:12,060 –> 00:56:14,610
They’re getting their first instruction,
1091
00:56:14,610 –> 00:56:16,200
not just supplemental instruction.
1092
00:56:16,200 –> 00:56:17,520
They’re getting their first instruction
1093
00:56:17,520 –> 00:56:19,920
from paraprofessionals.
1094
00:56:19,920 –> 00:56:21,630
And again, this is not a knock
1095
00:56:21,630 –> 00:56:23,940
on the paraprofessionals at all.
1096
00:56:23,940 –> 00:56:26,458
They’re being put in a
very difficult situation.
1097
00:56:26,458 –> 00:56:28,470
-Yeah.
-And parents are being told,
1098
00:56:28,470 –> 00:56:30,063
we’re doing you a favor.
1099
00:56:31,650 –> 00:56:32,850
And that’s one of the other things
1100
00:56:32,850 –> 00:56:36,150
that’s really interesting over
time, and it’s just emerging.
1101
00:56:36,150 –> 00:56:39,060
But it used to be parents always fighting,
1102
00:56:39,060 –> 00:56:41,860
for I want my kid to have a
one-to-one paraprofessional.
1103
00:56:43,140 –> 00:56:45,840
I think some of the most knowledgeable
1104
00:56:45,840 –> 00:56:49,560
and advocacy-oriented
parents have realized
1105
00:56:49,560 –> 00:56:51,450
that that’s not the panacea
1106
00:56:51,450 –> 00:56:53,610
to have an adult attached to the hip,
1107
00:56:53,610 –> 00:56:55,623
an untrained adult attached to the hip,
1108
00:56:57,630 –> 00:57:00,363
or a lesser trained person
attached to the hip.
1109
00:57:01,560 –> 00:57:05,640
They want their kid to have
access to a highly qualified
1110
00:57:05,640 –> 00:57:08,733
teacher and special educator
and other service providers.
1111
00:57:10,650 –> 00:57:11,700
Yeah, well, yeah.
1112
00:57:11,700 –> 00:57:14,170
I mean, so much of this work
1113
00:57:16,320 –> 00:57:19,890
points to just how difficult
parents and families have
1114
00:57:19,890 –> 00:57:22,590
with what they end up
needing to advocate for.
1115
00:57:22,590 –> 00:57:26,280
I mean, if you were talking
about programs that still do
1116
00:57:26,280 –> 00:57:31,170
punitive and behavioral
discipline and electric shock,
1117
00:57:31,170 –> 00:57:33,330
those programs are held
in place by parents
1118
00:57:33,330 –> 00:57:35,310
who feel like they have no other option.
1119
00:57:35,310 –> 00:57:37,830
So it’s not that they’re thinking
1120
00:57:37,830 –> 00:57:38,820
that this is what they want,
1121
00:57:38,820 –> 00:57:41,040
but if they’re not
presented with a service
1122
00:57:41,040 –> 00:57:43,590
delivery model that is healthy,
1123
00:57:43,590 –> 00:57:47,280
and sort of promotes those
constructive relationships
1124
00:57:47,280 –> 00:57:48,750
that you say are sort
of at the cornerstone
1125
00:57:48,750 –> 00:57:53,100
of academic achievement and
social behavioral success,
1126
00:57:53,100 –> 00:57:56,040
then they’re gonna go with
what somebody’s saying
1127
00:57:56,040 –> 00:57:58,530
is a solution if the
school’s not offering one.
1128
00:57:58,530 –> 00:58:01,143
And a lot of times, in
the regular schools,
1129
00:58:02,640 –> 00:58:06,030
because the parents, and this
is what parents have told me,
1130
00:58:06,030 –> 00:58:08,940
many parents have told me they’re worried
1131
00:58:08,940 –> 00:58:11,370
that their child will
fall through the cracks,
1132
00:58:11,370 –> 00:58:13,020
Or that they won’t get what they need
1133
00:58:13,020 –> 00:58:14,340
from the regular ed system
1134
00:58:14,340 –> 00:58:17,333
because the service delivery
model is not in place.
1135
00:58:17,333 –> 00:58:18,166
Yeah, they see it happen.
1136
00:58:18,166 –> 00:58:22,710
And so they want the
kind of security blanket
1137
00:58:22,710 –> 00:58:27,510
of that one-to-one
paraprofessional as kind of,
1138
00:58:27,510 –> 00:58:29,010
this is somebody who’s
gonna be watching out
1139
00:58:29,010 –> 00:58:30,420
for my kid all the time.
1140
00:58:30,420 –> 00:58:33,150
So it’s very understandable.
1141
00:58:33,150 –> 00:58:38,150
But to me, it’s a symptom
of a systemic problem
1142
00:58:39,270 –> 00:58:42,930
that a set of systemic problems
that we need to address.
1143
00:58:42,930 –> 00:58:46,170
And that’s why like the work
that you and I have done
1144
00:58:46,170 –> 00:58:49,380
in the last particularly say 10 years,
1145
00:58:49,380 –> 00:58:53,220
has really been focused on
trying to encourage people
1146
00:58:53,220 –> 00:58:58,220
to look at inclusive
systems of service delivery
1147
00:58:58,260 –> 00:59:02,560
that are less reliant
on care professionals
1148
00:59:03,630 –> 00:59:07,740
and that really are
there to support teachers
1149
00:59:07,740 –> 00:59:11,820
and students with disabilities
because special educators
1150
00:59:11,820 –> 00:59:13,893
and others aren’t there all the time.
1151
00:59:17,970 –> 00:59:19,350
I’ve got so many other questions,
1152
00:59:19,350 –> 00:59:21,300
and you gave such a good description
1153
00:59:21,300 –> 00:59:23,160
of one of your cartoons,
1154
00:59:23,160 –> 00:59:26,850
so that feels like too
good a segue to let go.
1155
00:59:26,850 –> 00:59:29,160
So why cartoons?
1156
00:59:29,160 –> 00:59:30,810
How did you get into that?
1157
00:59:30,810 –> 00:59:32,400
We’ve been talking a
lot about communication.
1158
00:59:32,400 –> 00:59:35,250
That’s obviously a very
different communication strategy.
1159
00:59:36,523 –> 00:59:38,270
A lot of people love cartoons.
1160
00:59:38,270 –> 00:59:40,830
And some of the most popular cartoonists
1161
00:59:40,830 –> 00:59:42,090
at that time were people
1162
00:59:42,090 –> 00:59:44,370
like Gary Larson, “Far Side” cartoons.
1163
00:59:44,370 –> 00:59:45,930
-Yep.
-And so I would always
1164
00:59:45,930 –> 00:59:46,830
-look through.
-We’re really
1165
00:59:46,830 –> 00:59:48,090
dating ourselves right now.
1166
00:59:48,090 –> 00:59:48,923
So other people are gonna have to Google-
1167
00:59:48,923 –> 00:59:50,820
Google who Gary Larson is, yeah.
1168
00:59:50,820 –> 00:59:52,533
He was a famous cartoonist,
1169
00:59:54,180 –> 00:59:56,040
had a whole “Far Side” series,
1170
00:59:56,040 –> 00:59:59,760
but I would go through
his books and calendars,
1171
00:59:59,760 –> 01:00:02,160
and I try to find things that were related
1172
01:00:02,160 –> 01:00:06,960
and they were funny, very
creative, and excellent.
1173
01:00:06,960 –> 01:00:09,240
And they were kind of
tangentially related,
1174
01:00:09,240 –> 01:00:11,691
but they were not like spot on.
1175
01:00:11,691 –> 01:00:16,691
And interestingly, there were
education cartoons back then,
1176
01:00:20,370 –> 01:00:25,370
but many of the education
cartoons made fun of students
1177
01:00:25,740 –> 01:00:27,960
and they made fun of parents,
1178
01:00:27,960 –> 01:00:29,523
or they made fun of teachers.
1179
01:00:31,140 –> 01:00:35,340
But mostly, they made
fun of kids and parents.
1180
01:00:35,340 –> 01:00:37,110
And I didn’t wanna do that.
1181
01:00:37,110 –> 01:00:39,480
I kind of did wanna make fun of us.
1182
01:00:39,480 –> 01:00:40,560
Sure.
1183
01:00:40,560 –> 01:00:44,550
Because I think of all
of the ridiculous things
1184
01:00:44,550 –> 01:00:45,990
that I’ve done in my own career,
1185
01:00:45,990 –> 01:00:48,000
and that I’ve seen well-intended
1186
01:00:48,000 –> 01:00:49,890
colleagues do in their careers.
1187
01:00:49,890 –> 01:00:54,360
And so my cartoon series is subtitled.
1188
01:00:54,360 –> 01:00:58,080
It’s Absurdities & Realities
of Special Education.
1189
01:00:58,080 –> 01:01:01,410
And I did wanna poke fun at the things
1190
01:01:01,410 –> 01:01:03,090
that we as professionals do,
1191
01:01:03,090 –> 01:01:05,640
kind of hold a mirror up to ourselves.
1192
01:01:05,640 –> 01:01:09,120
So at one point I started
to have these ideas,
1193
01:01:09,120 –> 01:01:10,520
and I started to write down,
1194
01:01:11,790 –> 01:01:13,500
I started to draw out cartoons
1195
01:01:13,500 –> 01:01:16,113
and the text and the images.
1196
01:01:17,460 –> 01:01:21,060
But as you know, I can’t
draw to save my life.
1197
01:01:21,060 –> 01:01:23,823
So my cartoons did not look very good.
1198
01:01:24,870 –> 01:01:29,870
And luckily, I was already
friends with an amazing artist,
1199
01:01:30,120 –> 01:01:33,630
Kevin Ruelle, who does all
different kinds of art.
1200
01:01:33,630 –> 01:01:38,430
He agreed to work with me
and he redrew my cartoons.
1201
01:01:38,430 –> 01:01:41,100
And you mentioned about
communication before.
1202
01:01:41,100 –> 01:01:43,410
Most people don’t journal articles.
1203
01:01:43,410 –> 01:01:45,600
I mean, a lot of professionals,
1204
01:01:45,600 –> 01:01:47,010
if they’re not in graduate school,
1205
01:01:47,010 –> 01:01:48,780
if they’re not in a master’s program
1206
01:01:48,780 –> 01:01:53,280
or some other graduate
program, they’re not like,
1207
01:01:53,280 –> 01:01:56,310
of course reading tons of literature,
1208
01:01:56,310 –> 01:01:59,223
where you’re publishing
your stuff, but cartoons,
1209
01:02:00,570 –> 01:02:03,840
people will look at those and
they’ll also remember them.
1210
01:02:03,840 –> 01:02:07,290
They remember the image even if they,
1211
01:02:07,290 –> 01:02:11,610
and the meaning even
if they don’t remember
1212
01:02:11,610 –> 01:02:13,053
an article that they read.
1213
01:02:14,040 –> 01:02:16,443
So it was another way.
1214
01:02:17,310 –> 01:02:19,440
I always tried to have three or four
1215
01:02:19,440 –> 01:02:22,950
or more different ways to
communicate the same thing.
1216
01:02:22,950 –> 01:02:25,320
So we’d have a research study,
1217
01:02:25,320 –> 01:02:29,160
then we’d have what we back in the day
1218
01:02:29,160 –> 01:02:30,990
called the Quick Guides to Inclusion,
1219
01:02:30,990 –> 01:02:34,020
which was a very non-researchy
1220
01:02:34,020 –> 01:02:36,960
teacher-friendly way of having like,
1221
01:02:36,960 –> 01:02:38,520
here’s the 10 most important things
1222
01:02:38,520 –> 01:02:40,590
we want you to know about this topic.
1223
01:02:40,590 –> 01:02:42,187
And then for each one of the 10 things,
1224
01:02:42,187 –> 01:02:45,060
there was one page of text,
1225
01:02:45,060 –> 01:02:48,458
and it was purposely not researchy,
1226
01:02:48,458 –> 01:02:51,213
it was purposely like
talking teacher to teacher.
1227
01:02:53,040 –> 01:02:57,030
Our research quick guides,
cartoons on the same topic.
1228
01:02:57,030 –> 01:03:00,750
So all the cartoons are either
based on research findings,
1229
01:03:00,750 –> 01:03:03,900
or topical issues in
the field of education,
1230
01:03:03,900 –> 01:03:05,760
special education.
1231
01:03:05,760 –> 01:03:09,270
And so it was a way to communicate.
1232
01:03:09,270 –> 01:03:10,560
And it was a lot of fun too.
1233
01:03:10,560 –> 01:03:14,670
I mean, it was really
fun working with Kevin.
1234
01:03:14,670 –> 01:03:17,340
And it was fun going from my office
1235
01:03:17,340 –> 01:03:19,207
to colleagues offices and say,
1236
01:03:19,207 –> 01:03:22,446
“Look at this one, what
do you think of this one?”
1237
01:03:22,446 –> 01:03:24,535
And they’d be like, “Not so good.”
1238
01:03:24,535 –> 01:03:27,030
Oh, that’s good, that’s good.
1239
01:03:27,030 –> 01:03:28,503
They vetted me.
1240
01:03:29,730 –> 01:03:31,080
It must have been so much fun.
1241
01:03:31,080 –> 01:03:33,180
It was a lot of fun.
1242
01:03:33,180 –> 01:03:37,413
And once they were done,
nobody wanted to publish ’em.
1243
01:03:38,340 –> 01:03:39,660
Publishers were afraid of them
1244
01:03:39,660 –> 01:03:42,143
or didn’t know what to do with them.
1245
01:03:42,143 –> 01:03:46,230
They were worried that they would think
1246
01:03:46,230 –> 01:03:51,230
that their publication
house was unscholarly,
1247
01:03:51,420 –> 01:03:54,172
or that I was unscholarly.
1248
01:03:54,172 –> 01:03:57,120
And so they were worried from
like an image perspective.
1249
01:03:57,120 –> 01:04:00,573
Will people be offended by these cartoons?
1250
01:04:01,652 –> 01:04:03,480
I kind of hope that some
people would be offended,
1251
01:04:03,480 –> 01:04:05,340
and some of people were.
1252
01:04:05,340 –> 01:04:08,370
Some of them are a little biting.
1253
01:04:08,370 –> 01:04:10,320
Some of them are funny,
some of ’em are a little,
1254
01:04:10,320 –> 01:04:11,760
they’re all satirical.
1255
01:04:11,760 –> 01:04:16,263
Some of them are just
absolutely 100% truth.
1256
01:04:17,220 –> 01:04:19,770
Like with no creativity on my part at all.
1257
01:04:19,770 –> 01:04:22,380
In fact, the one cartoon that’s probably
1258
01:04:22,380 –> 01:04:27,330
the most well known, and it is
certainly the most reprinted,
1259
01:04:27,330 –> 01:04:32,330
is the one where it shows
an image of a bunch of kids
1260
01:04:32,910 –> 01:04:35,400
showing up at school on the snowy day
1261
01:04:35,400 –> 01:04:39,270
and the school custodian is
outside shoveling the stairs.
1262
01:04:39,270 –> 01:04:41,760
And a student who uses a
wheelchair for mobility
1263
01:04:41,760 –> 01:04:45,810
is waiting to have the ramp shoveled.
1264
01:04:45,810 –> 01:04:50,567
And while the custodian
is shoveling the stairs,
1265
01:04:51,540 –> 01:04:55,860
the student asks him if
he would shovel the ramp.
1266
01:04:55,860 –> 01:04:57,660
And he says back to the student,
1267
01:04:57,660 –> 01:05:00,660
well, basically, when I’m
done doing the stairs,
1268
01:05:00,660 –> 01:05:02,884
then I’ll do the ramp for you.
1269
01:05:02,884 –> 01:05:05,010
And the student says
back to the custodian,
1270
01:05:05,010 –> 01:05:08,606
but if you shovel the ramp
first, we can all get in.
1271
01:05:08,606 –> 01:05:13,173
And it’s like clearing
a path for everyone.
1272
01:05:14,280 –> 01:05:15,357
That’s the moral of it.
1273
01:05:15,357 –> 01:05:18,393
And that was not my brainchild.
1274
01:05:19,410 –> 01:05:21,330
Pretty much the only credit I can take
1275
01:05:21,330 –> 01:05:23,730
is putting it into the form of a cartoon,
1276
01:05:23,730 –> 01:05:27,750
because that story was actually,
1277
01:05:27,750 –> 01:05:32,750
came from a student with
disabilities in Vermont
1278
01:05:32,910 –> 01:05:37,770
and was part of a report
that our dear colleague,
1279
01:05:37,770 –> 01:05:42,030
Deborah Lisi-Baker, had
included in a report
1280
01:05:42,030 –> 01:05:44,820
that was produced here at the center.
1281
01:05:44,820 –> 01:05:48,870
And I saw that story and I asked her,
1282
01:05:48,870 –> 01:05:51,030
could she get me in
contact with the student,
1283
01:05:51,030 –> 01:05:54,120
’cause I’d like to make
a cartoon about this.
1284
01:05:54,120 –> 01:05:56,010
She got in touch with the student.
1285
01:05:56,010 –> 01:05:59,400
The student said, “Yes, you
could make a cartoon about it,
1286
01:05:59,400 –> 01:06:01,590
but I didn’t wanna be named.”
1287
01:06:01,590 –> 01:06:03,510
So I still don’t know to this day
1288
01:06:03,510 –> 01:06:05,544
-who the student was.
-[Jesse] Oh, wow.
1289
01:06:05,544 –> 01:06:08,983
But I know that there is a student out
1290
01:06:08,983 –> 01:06:12,220
who’s certainly an adult
at this point of time
1291
01:06:14,070 –> 01:06:16,140
who is responsible for that story.
1292
01:06:16,140 –> 01:06:17,887
And it says on the side of the cartoon,
1293
01:06:17,887 –> 01:06:20,247
“Inspired by a student with disabilities.”
1294
01:06:21,810 –> 01:06:25,943
So a few of them are absolutely
like not made up at all.
1295
01:06:25,943 –> 01:06:28,473
They’re just depictions of reality.
1296
01:06:29,640 –> 01:06:30,990
Yeah, I’m smiling at them.
1297
01:06:30,990 –> 01:06:32,700
It’s literally right over your shoulder.
1298
01:06:32,700 –> 01:06:34,380
Oh, I didn’t know it was behind me.
1299
01:06:34,380 –> 01:06:36,203
I was gonna help you
with that if you need it.
1300
01:06:39,180 –> 01:06:40,230
I don’t think there’s any debate,
1301
01:06:40,230 –> 01:06:42,270
but it’s probably one of
the most recognizable things
1302
01:06:42,270 –> 01:06:43,890
that our center’s ever produced.
1303
01:06:43,890 –> 01:06:45,870
I mean, I see it everywhere,
1304
01:06:45,870 –> 01:06:47,700
certainly around campus
and people’s offices
1305
01:06:47,700 –> 01:06:49,710
that I wouldn’t necessarily expect.
1306
01:06:49,710 –> 01:06:52,260
I see it pop up on Twitter from a group
1307
01:06:52,260 –> 01:06:54,300
that I’ve never heard
of that have found it.
1308
01:06:54,300 –> 01:06:59,300
So it’s again kind getting
back to communication
1309
01:06:59,340 –> 01:07:02,640
and just sharing stories
as ways of educating
1310
01:07:02,640 –> 01:07:05,580
and influencing people, it’s powerful.
1311
01:07:05,580 –> 01:07:08,610
Sharing cartoons has really, I mean,
1312
01:07:08,610 –> 01:07:09,657
you can find dozens of them.
1313
01:07:09,657 –> 01:07:13,920
And there’s over 340 plus of the cartoons
1314
01:07:13,920 –> 01:07:17,610
that Kevin and I have
developed over the years.
1315
01:07:17,610 –> 01:07:21,540
And you can find them
in all different places.
1316
01:07:21,540 –> 01:07:23,990
You know ’cause you were
in my office many times.
1317
01:07:24,870 –> 01:07:26,100
When I had an office here,
1318
01:07:26,100 –> 01:07:29,730
I used to have a shelf that included books
1319
01:07:29,730 –> 01:07:31,980
where the cartoons had been reprinted.
1320
01:07:31,980 –> 01:07:32,960
And it’s interesting to me.
1321
01:07:32,960 –> 01:07:35,050
It was always interesting to me because
1322
01:07:36,330 –> 01:07:39,210
I had a real hard time finding a publisher
1323
01:07:39,210 –> 01:07:41,730
originally for the cartoons,
1324
01:07:41,730 –> 01:07:45,720
even academic presses that had published,
1325
01:07:45,720 –> 01:07:48,000
that I published books with
1326
01:07:48,000 –> 01:07:49,980
didn’t wanna publish the cartoons.
1327
01:07:49,980 –> 01:07:54,240
And it took literally a
mom and pop publisher,
1328
01:07:54,240 –> 01:07:59,040
very tiny publisher Peytral
Publications in Minnesota
1329
01:07:59,040 –> 01:08:01,380
to take a chance on publishing them.
1330
01:08:01,380 –> 01:08:06,060
They ended up publishing four
books of cartoons and a CD,
1331
01:08:06,060 –> 01:08:10,380
an interactive CD, which
now, nobody uses CDs anymore.
1332
01:08:10,380 –> 01:08:11,253
What’s a CD?
1333
01:08:15,000 –> 01:08:17,730
And then they sold the distribution rights
1334
01:08:17,730 –> 01:08:22,170
to Corwin, a SAGE company.
1335
01:08:22,170 –> 01:08:23,730
And then eventually,
they went out of print.
1336
01:08:23,730 –> 01:08:26,043
The first one was published in 1998,
1337
01:08:27,330 –> 01:08:30,120
which is a long time ago now,
but they’re out of print.
1338
01:08:30,120 –> 01:08:32,130
But they’re still out there and available.
1339
01:08:32,130 –> 01:08:37,130
But they’ve shown up in
the really unusual places.
1340
01:08:37,290 –> 01:08:39,990
You expect to see them
in this special ed book.
1341
01:08:39,990 –> 01:08:43,530
But they’ve shown up in books
1342
01:08:43,530 –> 01:08:45,690
on Universal Design for Learning.
1343
01:08:45,690 –> 01:08:47,910
The UDL community has really picked up
1344
01:08:47,910 –> 01:08:49,860
on that particular cartoon,
1345
01:08:49,860 –> 01:08:54,753
but they’ve shown up in
books about human diversity,
1346
01:08:56,760 –> 01:09:01,023
intellectual disability law books.
1347
01:09:02,460 –> 01:09:05,760
The American Physical Therapy Association
1348
01:09:05,760 –> 01:09:10,080
included five or six of
them in one of their books
1349
01:09:10,080 –> 01:09:12,093
on school-based therapy.
1350
01:09:13,141 –> 01:09:15,480
And they just showed up
in all kinds of places.
1351
01:09:15,480 –> 01:09:18,603
And they’re still showing
up all these years later.
1352
01:09:20,010 –> 01:09:22,650
Yeah, I think I’d like to wrap it up
1353
01:09:22,650 –> 01:09:27,650
by saying we still have
a lot of work to do.
1354
01:09:27,960 –> 01:09:29,400
Agree.
1355
01:09:29,400 –> 01:09:32,430
To support individuals with disabilities
1356
01:09:32,430 –> 01:09:34,020
and their families.
1357
01:09:34,020 –> 01:09:38,130
And one of the things I
always encouraged my students
1358
01:09:38,130 –> 01:09:40,710
and anybody that I work
with professionally
1359
01:09:40,710 –> 01:09:43,980
is to have a sense of
urgency about this work,
1360
01:09:43,980 –> 01:09:47,100
because while we’re kind of researching
1361
01:09:47,100 –> 01:09:50,193
and debating about what’s
the best thing to do,
1362
01:09:51,360 –> 01:09:52,620
kids are growing up.
1363
01:09:52,620 –> 01:09:54,690
Families are dealing with stuff,
1364
01:09:54,690 –> 01:09:58,920
and they don’t have the
luxury of all of this.
1365
01:09:58,920 –> 01:10:03,920
And so we need to do as
much as we can to approach
1366
01:10:05,640 –> 01:10:10,640
the challenges as quickly
and effectively as we can.
1367
01:10:11,700 –> 01:10:14,730
And I think that one of the
other kind of general things
1368
01:10:14,730 –> 01:10:17,340
that I always shared with
my students regarding
1369
01:10:17,340 –> 01:10:22,080
any practice, whether
it’s a paraprofessional
1370
01:10:22,080 –> 01:10:23,640
providing lots of instruction
1371
01:10:23,640 –> 01:10:27,330
or some therapy approach or
whatever, is to ask yourself,
1372
01:10:27,330 –> 01:10:29,670
would that practice be okay
1373
01:10:29,670 –> 01:10:31,677
if the student didn’t have a disability?
1374
01:10:31,677 –> 01:10:35,010
And if it’s not, you probably
shouldn’t be doing it.
1375
01:10:35,010 –> 01:10:38,640
But it’s a good question to be asking.
1376
01:10:38,640 –> 01:10:42,510
I think also, we need
to be really continuing
1377
01:10:42,510 –> 01:10:47,510
to be reflective and kind of
hold a mirror up to ourselves,
1378
01:10:47,970 –> 01:10:49,890
’cause a lot of things that get labeled
1379
01:10:49,890 –> 01:10:52,413
as inclusive are not very inclusive.
1380
01:10:54,120 –> 01:10:56,940
Just physically having a
student with a disability
1381
01:10:56,940 –> 01:11:01,143
in a regular class is not
inclusive, I don’t think.
1382
01:11:02,220 –> 01:11:04,320
And we’re not gonna
have time to go into all
1383
01:11:04,320 –> 01:11:06,720
the definitions of inclusion
or characteristics,
1384
01:11:06,720 –> 01:11:09,780
but the point is that
it’s about belonging.
1385
01:11:09,780 –> 01:11:11,070
It’s about, well, it’s about belonging,
1386
01:11:11,070 –> 01:11:16,070
but there’s a group of
people that have created
1387
01:11:17,040 –> 01:11:20,490
kind of a paper tiger
where they want you to make
1388
01:11:20,490 –> 01:11:22,920
a dichotomous choice and they’ll say,
1389
01:11:22,920 –> 01:11:25,440
look, we can include kids,
1390
01:11:25,440 –> 01:11:27,930
but they’re not gonna
get good instruction,
1391
01:11:27,930 –> 01:11:30,600
or we can give them
really great instruction,
1392
01:11:30,600 –> 01:11:31,980
but the price of that is we’re gonna have
1393
01:11:31,980 –> 01:11:36,000
to segregate them to do all
of our systematic instruction.
1394
01:11:36,000 –> 01:11:38,853
And I think that that
is a false dichotomy.
1395
01:11:41,130 –> 01:11:43,410
Not only is it an unnecessary choice,
1396
01:11:43,410 –> 01:11:46,620
it’s a bad choice because
the only way people
1397
01:11:46,620 –> 01:11:49,830
with disabilities are truly going to have
1398
01:11:49,830 –> 01:11:53,070
the same opportunities
and truly be included,
1399
01:11:53,070 –> 01:11:55,740
is if we say, “You know what?
1400
01:11:55,740 –> 01:11:57,267
You have to have both.”
1401
01:11:58,650 –> 01:12:01,920
Having good instruction in the segregated
1402
01:12:01,920 –> 01:12:04,470
environment is not acceptable.
1403
01:12:04,470 –> 01:12:07,530
And being physically
present and not getting
1404
01:12:07,530 –> 01:12:10,650
good instruction is also not acceptable.
1405
01:12:10,650 –> 01:12:13,140
We have to have a really higher standard
1406
01:12:13,140 –> 01:12:16,020
in saying people with disabilities
1407
01:12:16,020 –> 01:12:18,300
have a civil right to be included.
1408
01:12:18,300 –> 01:12:23,190
Now, our job is to figure out
how we’re gonna provide them
1409
01:12:23,190 –> 01:12:26,400
with high quality
curriculum and instruction
1410
01:12:26,400 –> 01:12:30,690
that they deserve and the
supports that they need
1411
01:12:30,690 –> 01:12:33,810
in order to access that learning.
1412
01:12:33,810 –> 01:12:36,060
That that’s where we
should be focusing on.
1413
01:12:36,060 –> 01:12:38,580
Not this, should we do it, should we not?
1414
01:12:38,580 –> 01:12:40,770
You can have one or
you can have the other.
1415
01:12:40,770 –> 01:12:44,234
And I think that I wanna
just challenge people
1416
01:12:44,234 –> 01:12:48,480
to think about that and also
to know that for those of us
1417
01:12:48,480 –> 01:12:52,380
that have seen this come from, I mean,
1418
01:12:52,380 –> 01:12:55,540
my earliest volunteer
experiences were an institutions
1419
01:12:56,910 –> 01:12:58,710
and then I kind of lived through
1420
01:12:58,710 –> 01:13:00,690
the deinstitutionalization movement,
1421
01:13:00,690 –> 01:13:04,893
worked in that segregated
schools toward inclusive schools.
1422
01:13:06,180 –> 01:13:10,570
Once you have experienced an
effective collaborative team
1423
01:13:11,842 –> 01:13:15,120
as a teacher or a service
provider or a family,
1424
01:13:15,120 –> 01:13:20,073
once you’ve experienced that
true collaborative teamwork,
1425
01:13:21,660 –> 01:13:26,550
and you’ve seen the possibility
of what actually can happen
1426
01:13:26,550 –> 01:13:30,570
for students with disabilities
when they are truly
1427
01:13:30,570 –> 01:13:32,643
included and appropriately supported.
1428
01:13:33,750 –> 01:13:35,200
There’s just no turning back.
1429
01:13:37,230 –> 01:13:39,510
Every once in a while, I get asked
1430
01:13:39,510 –> 01:13:42,030
if I’ll do something for
like a segregated school.
1431
01:13:42,030 –> 01:13:44,310
And it’s like, I know you’re working hard.
1432
01:13:44,310 –> 01:13:45,750
I know you’re trying to do good stuff.
1433
01:13:45,750 –> 01:13:47,460
I know you have good intentions,
1434
01:13:47,460 –> 01:13:50,310
but I can’t bring myself to do anything
1435
01:13:50,310 –> 01:13:52,980
that’s gonna strengthen you.
1436
01:13:52,980 –> 01:13:56,550
Creating a better segregated
environment, you know?
1437
01:13:56,550 –> 01:14:00,473
But once you’ve tasted
it and experienced it,
1438
01:14:00,473 –> 01:14:02,670
there’s just no turning back.
1439
01:14:02,670 –> 01:14:07,530
So I really hope that the next generation,
1440
01:14:07,530 –> 01:14:12,120
the current generation and
next generations of teachers
1441
01:14:12,120 –> 01:14:15,610
and special educators and
related services providers
1442
01:14:17,970 –> 01:14:22,230
do better, get farther than we’ve gotten,
1443
01:14:22,230 –> 01:14:25,350
because we’ve kind of ebbed and flowed
1444
01:14:25,350 –> 01:14:28,470
in terms of made progress
and seen some backsliding.
1445
01:14:28,470 –> 01:14:29,430
Yeah.
1446
01:14:29,430 –> 01:14:34,390
And it takes diligence
and it takes urgency.
1447
01:14:35,580 –> 01:14:39,270
And as my very favorite coach, Marv Levy,
1448
01:14:39,270 –> 01:14:41,040
former Hall of Fame,
1449
01:14:41,040 –> 01:14:43,620
Buffalo Bills coach
used to say about women,
1450
01:14:43,620 –> 01:14:46,410
I say the same thing
about inclusive education,
1451
01:14:46,410 –> 01:14:48,840
which is that it’s
simple, but it’s not easy.
1452
01:14:48,840 –> 01:14:50,340
Not always easy.
1453
01:14:50,340 –> 01:14:52,380
And I think that that’s
true about inclusion.
1454
01:14:52,380 –> 01:14:54,690
This is not rocket science.
1455
01:14:54,690 –> 01:14:57,453
Families do this all the time.
1456
01:14:58,410 –> 01:15:02,550
Families are the best models that we have
1457
01:15:02,550 –> 01:15:05,460
in real life for how you include,
1458
01:15:05,460 –> 01:15:10,440
really include someone who
has a significant disability.
1459
01:15:10,440 –> 01:15:14,460
So it’s not rocket science.
1460
01:15:14,460 –> 01:15:18,750
It’s not that hard, but
it’s not always easy.
1461
01:15:18,750 –> 01:15:20,400
So I think that’ll end there.
1462
01:15:20,400 –> 01:15:22,140
I think that’s a great way.
1463
01:15:22,140 –> 01:15:23,670
Michael, thank you for doing this,
1464
01:15:23,670 –> 01:15:25,830
and thank you for just all your support
1465
01:15:25,830 –> 01:15:27,333
and mentorship over the years.
1466
01:15:28,423 –> 01:15:29,760
I’ve loved it.
1467
01:15:29,760 –> 01:15:32,910
I’ve grown so much from
it, and I’m still learning.
1468
01:15:32,910 –> 01:15:33,840
Me too.
1469
01:15:33,840 –> 01:15:35,390
You’ve been great to work with.
1470
01:15:36,330 –> 01:15:38,529
-Thank you, sir.
-Thank you.
1471
01:15:38,529 –> 01:15:41,112
(upbeat music)
Green Mountain Disability Stories is the monthly podcast of the UVM Center on Disability and Community Inclusion (CDCI). Each episode features a conversation on some aspect of disability, by and with people with disabilities and their families and advocates. The views of guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect those of the CDCI.