CDCI Executive Director Jesse Suter guides you through the basic elements of creating an accessible PowerPoint document. He covers both automated and manual testing, as a step-by-step process, working through a set of PowerPoint slides that you can download and work with on your own desktop.
A full transcript appears below.
Jesse Suter. Hi, everybody. Yes, He is pronounced director of the Center on Disability and Community Inclusion. And today I get to go through a training on creating accessible PowerPoint files. So I’ve been not surprised. I have a PowerPoint that will take a look at together. There’s a bunch of specific recommendations and steps that we will go through. So a title for today is accessible PowerPoint documents, and that’s an important emphasis because we’re going to be covering CDC requirements for accessible files or documents, and that’s going to include two main categories automated testing that Microsoft PowerPoint gives us access to.
But it doesn’t fix everything for us. So we’re going to talk about some manual testing that’s needed as well. And I want to emphasize what we’re not going to cover today. So I’m not going to be talking about accessible presentations. So I’m talking about creating a document that you can share with other people. And for that document to be accessible, not not how to give a presentation in an accessible way, you can have a PowerPoint document that is perfect in terms of accessibility, and then you can share it in a way that’s not accessible at all.
So I’ve got some resources related to that and possibly a future professional development. I’m also not going to cover how to create accessible tables, and I’ll talk about that in just a minute. But nothing about tables and nothing about converting your PowerPoint file to a PDF. Those are all what Audrey would consider advanced topics and so we’re just not going to cover them today.
So I’ve got a cartoon here that the question I’m asking is death by PowerPoint or just torture? And we’ve got a devil like figure sitting behind a stone desk in a cave on a throne that has a couple of skulls on the back, speaking across the desk to a demon who’s listening and tentatively, and the caption says, I need someone well versed in the art of torture.
Do you know PowerPoint? So many of us are familiar with sort of death by PowerPoint. And again, I’m not going to be covering how to give a great presentation today. This is just the documents along those lines, though I do want to highlight that the center has created a new guide on accessible events that does include information on how to give accessible presentations.
And so we’ve got the link on the screen says Go that UVM edu forward slash accessible hyphen events. So this is very new. I think all of us should check this out. It is not just on accessible presentations, but it is accessibility considerations for before events, during events and after events. So it’s it’s a pretty great new resource and I know we’re all going to be using it a lot.
You might still be wondering why not tables? Maybe you use tables all the time. I love using tables, so why not tables? And I’ve got a quote here from Microsoft on their accessibility page for PowerPoint, and it says in general, avoid tables if possible and present the data another way, like paragraphs with headings. So that’s that’s as much as I’m going to talk about it today.
It’s essentially complicated and it’s very easy to create a table that is not accessible. So in terms of expectations and requirements at the center on PowerPoint accessible, adding a group this into two areas and if you came to the presentation or if you’ve watched the presentation on accessible Microsoft Word documents, this is very similar. So there’s a number of features that are automated and that’s letting you know if you have not used alternative text for images, if there’s issues or missing slide titles, the reading order of your slides or section names.
So these are all things that, depending on your PowerPoint, may come up during an accessible check, which is the automated process in Microsoft Word. Unfortunately, the longer list are things that we have to know to do and do on our own. Microsoft isn’t going to automatically check these or notify us about, and those are things like the size of our fonts and the types of fonts and styles that we use, the alignment of the text that we use, the color and contrast that we use, how we use links, video and audio embedded in our PowerPoint are that were linked to in our PowerPoint, leaving enough room at the bottom for captions, the actual filing itself and going into the the one of the hidden areas of the properties of the slide presentation itself. So these are all things that we are going to cover today. But when a group them into two broad areas, things that Microsoft accessibility checker will help us with and things that I want, and this is a similar caveat that Audrey gave for the accessible word docs presentation.
And this is the asterisks that addressing these items should get you to the level of accessibility for PowerPoint files that we’re requesting. And the asterisks is that you should always ask for and respond to feedback from people that are actually using your document because this we’re not going to capture every situation that you’re. Okay. So let’s begin with the Microsoft accessibility checker.
So this is a feature that’s built into PowerPoint. It’s also built into Microsoft Word. And there are some similarities and some differences for PowerPoint. So PowerPoint does have an automated automated accessibility checker, and you get to it by going to the review menu and then choosing check accessibility. And that’s often the first question that people have. One of the things that I tried to look up was if this was different on Windows Computers and Macintosh computers, and this way of getting to it is the same.
You would go to the review menu and then go to check accessibility. And when you do that, when you actually click on the check accessibility button, a new tab or pane in the screen should open up called accessibility. And what it’s going to do is give you a list of inspection results. And so in the in the example that I’ve got here, the first area, it says errors and it says missing object descriptions.
And it names a couple of slides where there might be problems. There’s also some warnings where it says check the reading order on several slides. And then also there’s a section called TIPS, and it’s letting me know that there’s a duplicate slide title. So those are all specific things that we’re going to talk about. But this is what should happen when you open up the accessibility checker is it should right away check the document that you have open and start giving you some things that it thinks are errors, some things that the things are maybe just something to warn you about and other things that it wants you to check.
Again, it’s not everything you need to check, but this is this is what is covered in the automated checker. So now I’m going to start to dive into some of these. There’s as you as you heard from the beginning, there’s quite a few of these. So again, please raise your real or virtual hand rights. Read a question in the chat.
I want to make sure we’re kind of addressing these as we go. So the first that often comes up that we want to make sure everyone knows about is using old text or alternative text for any images or visual graphics. And the the term that comes up is, quote, missing object description. So it doesn’t say all text. It says mission missing object description.
And what that means is you don’t have all the text on the image and over on the right of the slide, what’s in gray there is what you would actually see in the accessibility checker. So it’s a wife X and it says alternative text for images and other objects is very important for people who can’t see the screen.
Screen readers read alternative text aloud. So it’s the only information that many have about the image. Good alternative text helps them understand the image, and then that gives you the steps for fixing this. Now, this error is only going to come up if there is no text for an image. The the computer software isn’t smart enough yet to tell you if you have a bad description or if it’s too long or too short.
It’s it’s not there yet. When you’re thinking about doing alternative text, it’s it’s important to think about what the intention of the visual object or picture is. So sometimes we just have decorative objects. So those are items that do not contain any meaning necessary to understand the document. So it could be an arrow, but it’s really used in a decorative way.
Not to explain anything could be a starburst, it could be a line. I used a reuse this line that Audrey created so it could be a squirrel. This also includes decorative elements between chunks of text. And so I guess that’s the function of the squirrel. There would be separating sections if you added alternative text to every single decorative image, somebody who’s using a screen reader would be given a lot of auditory information.
That’s just not relevant for understanding what’s actually in your slide and what you’re trying to convey. So ultimately you have to use your own judgment about what are you trying to convey in the slide, and is that information accessible to everybody? So I’ve got a slide that’s titled Automatic Alt Text here, and my recommendation is you should not rely on automatic alt text.
I believe this is turned on by default. And so I, I recommend that folks do what I’ve done, which is to turn it off in your in your preferences or your settings section. And I’ve got an example here. So up on the screen is a is a map of Vermont with all of the counties listed by name. And there’s a few of those.
A few groups of those are color coded. So if you Microsoft PowerPoint, we’ll call that a map. And it’s not wrong. It is a map. So kudos to the eye for figuring that out. But just calling this a map really misses what I’m trying to show visually. And so my alternative text for this image said it’s a map that shows the 14 counties of Vermont, Franklin and Grand Isle counties are shaded in green.
Lemuel is blue. Orleans, Caledonia and Essex are red. The remaining counties are white, which includes Chittenden, Washington, Orange, Rutland, Windsor, Bennington and Windham. So this is an image that I’m using for a grant submission this week, so I won’t bore you with the details of exactly why we color coded them this. But that’s what I want people to understand when they look at this.
So I have to put all of that in the alternative text. Okay. So moving on to another area that the Microsoft accessibility checker will flag for us, and that is slide titles. So you’ll get a message that says missing slide title or or possibly duplicate slide title. And the the main takeaway message here is that every slide needs a unique and descriptive title.
So the accessibility checker says we fix well. Slide titles are used for navigation and selection by those who are not able to view the slide. And then there are the steps for fixing that. And there’s actually lots of different ways of doing that. This is this is unique to PowerPoint compared to Microsoft Word. So in Microsoft Word, it’s really important to understand how headings are helpful for navigating the document.
In PowerPoint, it’s there’s there’s a few ways of doing it, but really slide titles are very important and it is very common for folks to have the same slide title for multiple slides. So, you know, for example, the slide title for a hit for this one is accessibility Checker, Colon slide titles. I’ve got a whole bunch of slides that are all about the accessibility checker, so I could title them exactly the same thing.
Problem is, if you’re using those titles to navigate, then you really don’t know which slide to jump to. If you’re interested in a specific topic and so it’s important to come up with a unique title for each. So what I’ve got here is there’s many ways to find the slide titles. This is one that I prefer, which is to turn on the outline view.
And so over on the left hand side of the screen, there’s a pane. Sometimes folks don’t have this on at all. Sometimes you’ll see a little image that’s almost like a thumbnail of your PowerPoint slides. But if you change that to outline view by going to view and then outline view, it’ll list each of your slides by title.
And so it’s just a very quick way of making sure that you have a title for each slide and that it’s different, that it’s unique for each one. Okay, but what about situations when you don’t want a title, when it’s not helpful for your slide? Really, I just want a nice clean slide with an image and I don’t want any words on the page at all.
Well, PowerPoint actually has an answer to that. And you can hide a title so a slide can have a title which will make it still helpful for accessibility and for navigation. But if visually it’s in the way you can, you can hide it and you go to that by going to review and then check accessibility. And then one of the options there is called the selection pane.
We’ll come back to this a couple of times, but for this, if you choose the selection pane over on the on the right, it’ll give you a list of everything that’s up on the screen and here there are two things. There’s the title and there’s the picture. So that’s what’s on your slide. And there’s a little eyeball icon next to each of those.
If you click on the eyeball, it’ll hide the element that you’re choosing. So in this case, if you want to hide the title, you could just click on the eyeball and it would hide it, but it would still be there hidden for people using screen readers or people that are using your slide outline to navigate the. The next area that I want to cover is also comes up for the accessibility checker and it’s called Reading Order.
This is another unique characteristic of PowerPoint, and it’s something that I was shocked when I when I learned about it the first time. And it’s different from from Microsoft Word. So I want to make sure I take my time with this and see if there’s any questions. So the the message that would come up in the accessibility checker would be check reading order.
And this is this is a warning, and I’m actually not even sure how it flagged certain slides to do that. You’ll want to do this in general for your slides, especially if it’s a slide that has a lot of things on it. And in general, every object, every text box, every image, every thing that is on a slide is actually ordered in a certain way.
And my understanding is that it’s essentially ordered automatically by the timing that it was added to the slide. So the accessibility checker says, why fix people who cannot view the slide? We’ll hear the slide, text shapes and content, read back in a specific order. So if all of that is out of order, your slides not going to make sense.
Even if when you look at it, you can read it just fine visually, but the screen reader is not going to read it back necessarily in the order that it’s visually presented. It will read it back in sort of a hidden order that you need to understand. So you’ve got to verify that the reading order and labels make sense.
So we’re going to take a little bit of time to talk through this, because this is this is really important. So I’ve got a slide here, just a gray background. The title says The reading order of this slide is wrong. There’s a link for Go that you’ve aimed at edu accessibility up in the top right corner. And then below that there’s just a text box that says the order of your text matters and it might not be clear just by and then to be cute, I’ve got a little eyeball icon instead of the word looking and then add it, and then there’s a little icon that shows a little checklist for indicating something in order.
So this is the actual reading order. So order matters, period. I have a checklist icon of your text. Clear. Just by go that you’ve mdd you forwards license taxability the and it might not be added so that’s what a screen reader would have read of the last slide and it just jump back visually you can’t see that so hopefully that sort of drives home the point that you can you can make a slide that looks great and looks accessible.
You can make it inaccessible by not understanding reading order. So this is counterintuitive in a few ways. I’m going to go through this slowly, but if there’s questions at any point, please just let me know. So like the other things that we found so far, you go to the review menu, check accessibility. We go back to that selection pane.
And so that’s the pain that lists each each element of a slide and it’s in a list. And so last time what I wanted you to understand was that had a hide something or not like that, that unwanted title in this case, we’re going to it’s important to look at the actual list. And so this slide is just showing what that pain would look like.
And it’s that slide that we were just looking at together so I could zoom if it would be helpful. But basically it’s it’s got each of those elements and those were instead of one big text box which would be read in order, there are a bunch of little text boxes that were all put in there out of order just to make the point.
So you’ve got a list of everything that’s on your slide, and so you need to put it in order. And here’s the counterintuitive part. The thing at the top of the list is the end of your is the end of your or reading order. So your reading order starts at the bottom and works its way up. Why? I don’t know.
But part of that is I think they’re trying to they’re trying to have you picture a slide as actually sort of a not a flat slide, but something that’s actually three dimensional. And you are layering one element after another. So the bottom most element is the first element and then you sort of build up from there. But in this case, it’s a two dimensional slide and it’s a two dimensional list.
So the most important thing when you look at the reading order is the first thing is at the bottom of the list, and then you work up from there. Once you understand those concepts that reading order matters and that you need to work from the bottom up, then this is fairly straightforward. You can look at this and you would know at a glance, okay, my title needs to be at the bottom of the list because that’s the first thing that I want people to understand.
And then you can put everything else in the order that you actually want. People we want wanted presented. This is the first way to fix the reading order. This is, you know, again, the accessibility checker will automatically warn you about this, but it’s not going to fix it for you because it doesn’t know what order your slide should be.
It you have to go in and fix it. The other way to fix it is is actually very simple, which is to start with a template that’s already in order and don’t change it too much. In fact, that would be one of the main takeaway messages I would have for today in general, that if you are starting with CCI template for a PowerPoint file or even one of Microsoft offices, not that all templates are great, but they, they generally have the reading order set correctly.
So title will be first followed by the block of text, followed by an image is usually a fairly simple slide. And so if you’re starting with a template, then you really aren’t going to have to fix too much here. This would just be a quick thing to just make sure that it looks good. Where where we get into trouble is when we really want to customize a slide and and add a bunch of things to it.
Like, that’s great. People should do that, but you should just know you need to also check the reading order, right? A less common is using section names. Now this is something that would come up in the accessibility checker if you are using section names. So again, for Microsoft Word, for those that went to that training, it’s all about headings.
That’s how you kind of navigate a document that’s that’s essentially becomes your outline headings for PowerPoint. We’ve got section names and we’ve got slide titles. So section names are not something you have to use, but if you do use them and you don’t actually give them a meaningful name, you’ll get an error message that says you’ve used the default section name, which isn’t a very helpful name in general.
I’d recommend you use sections if you’ve got a long PowerPoint presentation because they just provide a little bit more information in terms of in terms of the outline, they make it easier to navigate so you don’t have to go through all of the slide titles. You can actually kind of jump to what the big sections are in your presentation.
And for me, I’ve started to use them for longer PowerPoints when I’m creating them in the first place because they let you do nifty things like if you want to, if you decide, Oh, you know what, I want the manual accessibility testing to come after. I can take that section and just easily move a whole section. So a whole group of slides at once rather than trying to move them one at a time.
I can also sort of open a section and work on it and then close it when I want to sort of get past it. So it’s not something that you have to use, but it’s recommended for longer presentations and if you do use them, then just like slide titles, you should give them short descriptive names and they should be different.
They can’t be duplicates. Okay, So those are the things that the accessibility checker would flag for us. So now I’m moving into the things that you will need to manually test to ensure accessibility. So you also need to do some manual accessibility testing. And so the list here includes, again, font size and family and style, text alignment, color and contrast how you insert hyperlinks.
So their format, certainly if you’ve got any video or audio as part of your presentation, leaving room for captions, having file names that are readable, and then also a couple of adjustments to the properties. So that that sounds like a lot. And depending on your presentation, it might, it might be it might be more or less depending on what you’re doing and what you’ve included.
So we’ll go through these one at a time. So in terms of font size, family and style, this part is fairly similar to Microsoft Word in in the sense of you want to check your minimum font size on the body of the text on the slide titles. You certainly want to choose a readable font family for the type and length of text that you’re working with.
So for for this one, we we’re using UVM recommended font, which is Brown. Brown. Not all of us have it. There’s other recommended fonts that we can use. And you know, if you’re using a template, if you’re using as template or another template that that sort of that’s recommended or maybe one that’s been created for your project, then this isn’t something that you need to think about too much in the sense that it’s already been decided really where we tend to go, where we tend to have problems are these other points here.
So if you start italicize using your text or bolding your text or putting things in all caps, Audrey’s recommendation here and I took this from the word presentation is for you to really think about why you’re changing the file. What are you trying to convey? What are you trying to help people understand? And a lot of times we we really just want to sort of drive home a point.
We want to make sure people like if you if you forget everything else in the slide, here’s the one thing I want you to remember, but it’s very easy to start over using italics and bold and putting things in all caps. And it’s also very easy to not use it consistently. And so Audrey’s point here is to really think about why you’re using it and when and you should use it. Sparing only and you should use it consistently are the main points. So on the current slide, the title, the slide titles are always in all caps, but I believe it’s possible I missed something, but that’s the only time we’re using all caps on our slides. So after, you know, people are taking a look at this they can get familiar with, okay, great.
I always know if something’s in all caps. That’s the title. And the last point here, it says, use underline text only for links. And this is important because in general, when text is underlined, it’s a way of letting people know that it’s a link. So you don’t want to use it to just emphasize text or to say, you know, something’s a title.
Okay, So next part about manual testing is text alignment. And so in general, you want to left justify your text and so you want and this is the same for a word document as well. It’s it’s generally a lot easier to read text that is aligned on the left side. So Audrey’s point here is if you choose to justify text on both sides, which is pretty common for magazines or newspapers have a good reason for it.
And Audrey’s recommendation is better yet, test it with your audience. So who are the folks that are you’re going to send this file to or we’re going to review this ultimately, is there a reason that justifying it in a different way would be better for them, in which case that’s a great reason to change it. But if you don’t have a reason, maybe you maybe you’re like me and you just saw somebody else’s PowerPoint presentation and you thought it looked really, really cool.
So you just tried to copy it as best you can. I do that all the time and then realize, Oh yeah, they were really trying to speak to a very different audience than I am, or that something that worked great when it was just a presentation. But it’s very different when I’m sending somebody the document and want them to review this on their own.
Another part of manual testing that is similar for Microsoft Word is the color that you use. So it’s very important to check the color contrast throughout the document. And these are the exact same guidelines that Audrey included for a word document. So if it’s small text, you need a higher color contrast. So there needs to be a bigger difference between the colors that you’re using, between text and background or other areas.
If it’s larger text, the ratio here is 3 to 1 icons and graphics is a ratio of 3 to 1. If you’re like me, you don’t really know what that means other than okay, those are that’s a smaller ratio than a four and a half to one for small text. But the tool here and the fix here is that you don’t have to know that you should be going for higher color.
Contrast between background and text or background and foreground so people can differentiate. And there’s an online checker for that. And so there’s a link to web aims contrast contrast checker. So same recommendation from the word document. The danger and what’s common is to have some kind of background image or color that is too similar to the text. And so there’s no way to read the text on on top of it or with that background.
And so this is just a way that you can plug the numbers into this checker and it’ll tell you exactly what the ratio is. I mentioned links a couple of times here that this also was part of the word presentation, but is as always important and something that that I have to remind myself of a lot is that the link text should be clear and accurate about the destination that you’re sending somebody to.
So very common and we see this on the web, we see this in documents all the time, is either the actual address written out so it says htp as colon forward slash forward slash. And then it’s about a thousand characters of of code. You want to avoid that and instead have something clear another thing to avoid is something that just says link or click here or see this page or go here or learn more.
All of those don’t describe what the link is going to take you to at all. And so a simple rule of thumb is if you’re sending somebody to a website that web or a web page that web page probably has a title that explains what it is. Just use that title and then have the link that use that text and use that title as the text for your link.
And so you’re not visually showing the link that’s in the code for that text, but you know, just by scanning a list of the links that folks can see the descriptions and decide if that’s a link that they want to or need to click on or not. Again, only use underlines for links, don’t use them for other things because that that can be confusing manual testing if you’ve got video, if you have audio either embedded in your PowerPoint or if you are linking to a video or audio that you’re going to play as part of your presentation.
Those that audio and video also needs to be accessible. So videos need captions and also audio descriptions are important to narrate visual information. So one of our goals for today’s presentation is to record this and we’re going to add captions and those have to go somewhere and they generally go in the bottom of the screen. So if I had every single slide with information going all the way to the bottom of every slide, then it’s going to be covered up by the captions, making the captions harder to read in the information on the slide, harder to see.
So the convention that I found is that, you know, leave about 10 to 15% at the bottom of each slide for captions. If you go back through this presentation, you’ll find that that for most but not every single one. So it’s it’s up in two. Remember, maybe it’s not relevant. Maybe you’ve got something that ultimately isn’t going to have a voiceover like this recording will and won’t need captions.
But in general, it’s a good rule of thumb. The image that I’ve got right now is a little pretend slide that has a title that just says random icons are distracting and there’s a picture of a four icons. One’s a rubber duck, one’s a little scene with the sun over some, some grass and some plants. Another is a little bumblebee hive and another is a birthday cake.
Those were random icons and can be distracting. But the point of this little image was to show a bar at the bottom that’s 15 that represents 15% of the slide vertical. So you can get a sense of of what that is. And then also in the main slide, you can see there’s a big open space on the bottom where we can add the captions later.
Accessible file names, some of these I knew in some of these I did. So the recommendations are two Don’t start or in the file name with a space, a period, a special character or an underline. And the another is to keep your file names to a reasonable length. So those I think I generally followed using lowercase or Himmel case.
So some of the links recommend that you exclusively use lowercase because some some software that might be looking at file names is case sensitive. So the case matters. So I think the recommendation is that it’s just simpler if you just keep things in lowercase camel case, as I understand it, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, is just capitalizing the first of each word.
So on here it says To be accessible to screen readers, file names should not contain spaces at all. So not just at the beginning, but at all, or any special characters. So a little redundancy here, but don’t use spaces, also don’t use underscores. And so those are that that symbol looks kind of like an underline. Sometimes we use them when we don’t want to use a space.
Instead, what they recommend is use hyphens instead. So if you want to make a separation between words in your file name, just use a hyphen. There’s two links on this page under the title Resources one and says Accessible file names please. No spaces and or special characters. The second link is the title for another web page that says characters to avoid in file names and directories.
If it’s a file name that you’re not sending to anyone or sharing with anybody, then you can call it anything you like. But this is specifically for the situation when you’re trying to create an accessible PowerPoint and send it to other people. All right. So when you’re done with everything, there’s a couple of things that you want to add to the properties of the actual document.
So you open properties by going to the file menu properties, and then there’s a tab called the summary tab. I apologize. Pretty sure these are instructions only for for Apple computers, but I think it’d be pretty similar if you’re using Windows. And the main thing here is you want to make sure that your document has a helpful descriptive title in this tab.
This is separate from your actual file name. So if you’re like me and you’re using a template that somebody else created, it had a title at the time and you don’t want to just keep using reusing that same title. So you want to open this up, change it to the title of your current presentation, change the author and the manager The author.
Be your project name or your organization name. So I wrote Center on Disability, Community Inclusion, and then the manager is your name. So I wrote Jesse Suiter for that, not for nothing, because I’m sure somebody noticed it at the top of the window. It says Accessible PowerPoint documents 2023 and it uses Camel case. So and it does have hyphens.
I’ve changed that to be all lowercase. So when you access this this document, it’ll be lowercase because like I said, I was learning first, resist the resist the freakout. This is a lot to train yourself to do. And their recommendation was to pick one thing from today’s workshop and try it for 30 days. The second point was accessibility is a continuum where we are all doing our best and we can all do better.
Hopefully about a little bit that today that I’m certainly learning more about this every time I focus on it. The third areas for help. This is all of our jobs and we’re all learning. And the more of us that are working on this, the more we’ll be able to support each other. And then the fourth is something I mentioned kind of early, but trust human data over automation that computer A.I. is getting better and better, but it’s not there yet.
So use it as a as a guide, but it’s not going to fix and ensure that things are accessible for us. I close with just a few resources that will be in the in the PowerPoint document so folks can access these later. One is Microsoft’s page on making PowerPoint presentations accessible to people with disabilities. Web aim is a project at our our sister center in Utah, and they also have a page that’s focused on PowerPoint accessibility.
And then I have links to our own Cbc.ca Accessibility Resources web page and one resource on that page, and I’ve got a link to that directly is the CDC checklist for designing accessible documents. And then a few last resources that I put in here, a specific specific to images. One is about decorative images, another one is that Web contrast checker that I mentioned earlier.
There’s also a colorblind web page filter. And then finally, for those of you that are like that might be struggling with what is a short but helpful and accurate all text description, there’s a website that has an old text decision tree that can help with that. So.